Discuss the philosophy found in the various incarnations of Ghost in the Shell

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Post by AlphonseVanWorden »

BTW, I think that it's important to keep the chronology in mind when reading MMI:

01 Prologue: 2035.03.06 5:05 A.M.
02 2035.03.06 5:45 A.M
03 2035.03.06 8:20 A.M.
04 2035.03.06 1:20 P.M.
05 2035.03.06 1:54 P.M.
06 Epilogue: 2035.03.06 5:35 A.M.

In other words, the Prologue and Epilogue (the sections that most directly involve Tamai) take place before Chapters 02-05, although we can assume there's some chronological overlap between Chapter 02 and the Epilogue.

I think that makes a big difference in terms of what Tamai sees in the Epilogue and what it means.

And it makes a huge difference when reading Tamaki's conversation with Motoko Aramaki towards the end of Chapter 05. Especially since the Epilogue's last scenes take place before the events of Chapter 05.

As I've asked before: What do you think the deal is with the last couple of panels of the Epilogue?
Such is the soul in the body: this world is like her little turf of grass, and the heaven o'er our heads, like her looking-glass, only gives us a miserable knowledge of the small compass of our prison. - Bosola, in John Webster's The Duchess of Malfi
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Post by Gillsing »

I'm just going to have to thank you again. I never paid attention to the time/date stamps, so I assumed that the epilogue happened after the last chapter, and that it was a second meeting or a very long one. I also never read the Kojiki, though I think we asked earlier if someone had and could explain the connections. And it seems like you have and could do that. So now I guess I don't have to wonder what Tamai saw in the epilogue. Still don't know what she's talking about in that conversation in chapter 5 though.

Why she's having lightning in her eyes in the last panels of the epilogue I don't know. I didn't even know eyes were capable of displaying stuff like that.
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Post by Lightice »

Gillsing wrote: Why she's having lightning in her eyes in the last panels of the epilogue I don't know. I didn't even know eyes were capable of displaying stuff like that.

It's not a lightning. It's the Tree, glowing through her eyes. I imagine that it portrays her enlightenment through understanding of the Tree, or something similar. Considering, how fantastic the entire epilogue was, I think we can accept a physical manifestation of a psychic phenomena.

The fact, that the epilogue happened before the rest of the chapters does seem to explain why Tamai knows everything she does, when she speaks to Motoko Aramaki about the Northen Stars, but it also adds questions on exactly what happened in "real time" when Tamai's enlightenment took place? Previously we assumed that this was first signs of birth of the new species, but this would happen earliest, when Kusanagi got her hands on Professor Rahampol's notes...Was it a glimpse of future, after all and Isuzu just pulling Aramaki's (Section 9's) chain, by claiming it was a present event - perhaps trying to ensure, that Aramaki wouldn't interfere...? So many questions, so few answers...
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Post by sonic »

Sorry, going back to AI for a moment-
If a computer were to become self aware what then would be the difference between their brain, and ours. Theoretically, nothing.
But this still does not mean that the significance -the value- of being human would be lost. Unless humans truly are weedy little creatures with small minds, who cannot put up with no longer being the only "special" creatures on the planet and who, in their tantrum over it decide in their own illogical heads to throw away their own significance. Sorry, but that isn't me. I don't suddenly feel that I don't have value just because something else can walk and talk and think how I think and do what I do. I'd like to be unique, but I think if I do bump into something similar to myself I'm not going to get upset over it, I'm just going to get along with my life. Be adaptable- just stop thinking that the value of your species comes from being so darn "special" (i.e. superior, the only one who can be self-aware, etc.). Keeping self-awareness to ourselves is... well... kind of selfish, really.

Also, I noticed that a lot of people have a lot of doom and gloom visions of what would happen in the rise of the AIs. Someone said something along the lines of, "Humans should be so arrogant as to think they are worth keeping around in another lifeform's eyes." Well, humans should also not be so arrogant as to assume that anything that comes after us (especially if it's a lifeform of superior intelligence) will be as bad as us! It's arrogance to take the poor spirit and the lowly things we do to survive sometimes and to place it onto the next step in evolution. They could also be a lot better than us. We don't know. But human arrogance is to assume that the model of our behaviour will apply to them... even that they will be human at all, really. All of these facts we use- biology, evolution, etcetera are just our facts. Let the next species sort out it's own, progress be progress and we can deal with the consequences when we know them. I think it is less likely that the consequences will be bad. Maybe we could learn from them to not be such cynics.[/quote]
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