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Discuss the philosophy found in the various incarnations of Ghost in the Shell

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sonic
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Post by sonic »

Don't tempt him/her...
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Gillsing
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Post by Gillsing »

sord wrote:... as well as a reason to keep one real arm, the one the watch is on (in the last episode the kid-laughingman states that she still hasn't switched to a completly prosthetic body, which when applied to Batou's reasoning of why Motoko has always had the same body and watch that's shown in the 3rd to last episode when they run from section 9 HQ.)
Not sure about what you mean there. I always thought that she only replaced the arm that got torn off in the fight with the heavy mechanized armour, and that she thus kept her 'original' cybernetic body rather than replacing it fully with a completely new cybernetic body, which I assume was the plan when she was at the hospital. Instead she used that replacement body as a decoy for the sniper's bullet. So she's a full cyborg, her arm is not her 'real' arm. If anything it's newer than the rest of her body.
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Re: o_0

Post by Spica »

the_shadow wrote:Not really Spica, I treat my body as if my skin were synthetic. It will not be cut by my own hands, I have tried. A total of 8 cuts to the forearm yielded no results
Were you by any chance using plastic cutlery?
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
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Post by Gillsing »

Come on, plastic cutlery cut ordinary human skin just fine. Those plastic knives with teeth are sharp! :shock:
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Gillsing, Spica, simon's ghost

Post by the_shadow »

It was no plastic cutlery. It was first a compass, then scissors, then a broken bottle, then a knife.
~The Shadow~
~Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you.~
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Jeni Nielsen
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Post by Jeni Nielsen »

Ok guys can we not talk about cutting anymore. I'd rather not talk about it at all even if it is in a joking manner. I think this has gone far enough. (Can you tell this is a touchy subject for me and might be for other people too).

Mr. Shadow what you do to yourself is up to you, but since you might be making people uncomfortable let's change the subject shall we.
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simon's ghost
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Post by simon's ghost »

This is going to seem a little cheeky, but I need to ask. Does this mean that we couldn't discuss the philosophical implications of traditionnal seppuku, or kamikaze bombers because some might have or once had suicidal tendencies? I wonder if the ghost hacking can remind some people of a rape experience... I'm sorry Jeni, I really don't mean to be rude (I am aware that this whole post seems a bit agressive but I haven't found any other way to explain my point of view) but perhaps you're off target this time. You wrote that we should leave the subject even if it's in jest. I say perhaps we should stop joking about it and really discuss. If that's impossible, then let's leave it that. Besides, people have issues. Me and you and others. We all feel a little roughed up with certain subjects. Of course, you are the mod so if you feel this is really a problem for safety concerns with the site, you have the last word on it and that's ok too.
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Post by Reconsciousness »

I agree with simon's ghost (that sounded wierd typing O_O)
If it isnt serious and philisophical, then leave it. Otherwise, keep it going and lets talk about it.

and shadow-whoever, please stop doing stupid things. Leaving it at that...

Is she depressed? I think like that one dude, that shes more 'bored' than depressed. I doubt she would ever commit suicide. Because no matter how much her life gets screwed up, she logically knows thats not even what she is thinking about. And secondly, she is in a philisophical rut, yes, but i think the motivation that got her that far is to the point where it will never cease, no matter what. She would not kill herself out of curiosity for more that she may have overlooked.

And If you get out of this cycle of going back to thinking of your existence, etc, then pray tell us: what is wrong with the initial argument?
(thats kind of rhetorical....)
A mind opened never regains its original dimensions; a mind isolated will never acknowledge what is deaper inside...
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Jeni Nielsen
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Post by Jeni Nielsen »

simon's ghost wrote:This is going to seem a little cheeky, but I need to ask. Does this mean that we couldn't discuss the philosophical implications of traditionnal seppuku, or kamikaze bombers because some might have or once had suicidal tendencies? I wonder if the ghost hacking can remind some people of a rape experience... I'm sorry Jeni, I really don't mean to be rude (I am aware that this whole post seems a bit agressive but I haven't found any other way to explain my point of view) but perhaps you're off target this time. You wrote that we should leave the subject even if it's in jest. I say perhaps we should stop joking about it and really discuss. If that's impossible, then let's leave it that. Besides, people have issues. Me and you and others. We all feel a little roughed up with certain subjects. Of course, you are the mod so if you feel this is really a problem for safety concerns with the site, you have the last word on it and that's ok too.
If you want to discuss it in a serious manner that's one thing, but the few posts in response were not serious in any way as far as I am concerned. Even sensitive subjects can be discussed in a serious way as long as people remember these topics can be sensitive to people. I would say that topics like rape are best left out of this forum if you ask me. I would be very concerned that people would take things out of hand. If you can prove to me that you can discuss these topics maturely then go ahead. So far it hasn't been proven to me.
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Post by simon's ghost »

Most of the discussions we've had in the philosophy section are about serious stuff, treated seriously. Thanks nonetheless for pointing out that we were out of line. There was some moderate temptation and we wholeheartedly strayed from our ways, which is a rare occurrence.

Everyone, repeat with me:

Sorry miss Jenni!! :mrgreen:
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Post by Spica »

People tend to use those words in a unisex manner, even in real life.
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
-Hamlet
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Post by james_sb »

Hi, I'm new, but introductions later.. straight to the point:
Gillsing wrote:
sord wrote:... as well as a reason to keep one real arm, the one the watch is on (in the last episode the kid-laughingman states that she still hasn't switched to a completly prosthetic body, which when applied to Batou's reasoning of why Motoko has always had the same body and watch that's shown in the 3rd to last episode when they run from section 9 HQ.)
Not sure about what you mean there. I always thought that she only replaced the arm that got torn off in the fight with the heavy mechanized armour, and that she thus kept her 'original' cybernetic body rather than replacing it fully with a completely new cybernetic body, which I assume was the plan when she was at the hospital. Instead she used that replacement body as a decoy for the sniper's bullet. So she's a full cyborg, her arm is not her 'real' arm. If anything it's newer than the rest of her body.
I think you about right there, she used the other body in remote control to make it seem like she got killed unbeknowest to even Batou. The clear line on her arm in the last episode just shows the attach point for the replacement arm.

About Major being depressed in the film. The overlaying theme of philosophical discussion about life and it's meaning in cyberisation and self-developing A.I.'s covers this one I think.

Try this. Actually imagine it for a moment if you will. I only fully grasped the idea when I did this.
  • #Put your self in an artificial body, neck down.
    #You have mental control over it's movements, but you don't have feeling in them. (Batou and probably the others kept pain turned off as mentioned in the second film when replacing his arm).
    #So there you are, expierencing everything entirely from your head, maybe confined to your sight, sound, taste and smell.
    #You learn of philosophical theory that suggests when technology progresses so far that A.I. becomes self-aware, the signifigance of being human is extinguished. [This exists, i'll get back to you on that: See below *]
    #Then you realise you can't see inside your head, to see if you have a 'Human' brain there. Or are you a self aware A.I.? How do you tell, there's so much cyberisation there? (Major is not in any doubt as far as the series goes anyway, we get to see her history.)
    #Major questions these things, and questions her ghost. Re: boat and elevator scene. This is the cause of her demeanure. It's a self absorbed, thoughtful look hinted with worry.
The Puppetmaster comes from the other side of the story. He provides an answer for the Major, and the conclusion to the theme and the film.


Just an interesting point from above. If A.I. became self-aware, then A.I. controlled machines would stand higher on the evolutionary chain than humans. They cann't die, and can acumulate accurate and endless information.
(which could lead to interesting results such as, the way humans crowd out other species, so could A.I. crowd out Organic people...
A.I. might define organic as 'better' for a given reason [possibly to aviod the inheirent weakness in being the same as in the end of the first film] and then transform themselves to being organic and then reverse to becoming mostly organic A.I.'s.. This could develop endlessly)


*I havent had a chance to read this my self, but I've been told this explians it well: The Mind's I : Fantasies and Reflections on Self and Soul by Douglas R. Hofstadter and Daniel C. Dennett

Especially Section II: Soul Searching, Capter 4: Computing Machinery and Intellegence.

A review I just saw gives an interesting quote: "Ever since David Hume declared in the 18th century that the Self is only a heap of perceptions, the poor Ego has been in a shaky conditions indeed...Mind and consciousness becomes dispensable items in our accounts of reality, ghosts in the bodily machine...Yet there are indications here and there that the tide may be tuming...and the appearance of The Mind's I, edited by Douglas R. Hofstadter and Daniel C. Dennett, seems a welcome sign of change."--William Barrett, The New York Times Book Review
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Apologies

Post by the_shadow »

I'm sorry. I had no idea that humans were so touchy about this particular topic. I shall remember this conversation for later reference should I find myself embelleshing in another touchy subject.
~The Shadow~
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Post by sonic »

#You have mental control over it's movements, but you don't have feeling in them. (Batou and probably the others kept pain turned off as mentioned in the second film when replacing his arm).
#So there you are, expierencing everything entirely from your head, maybe confined to your sight, sound, taste and smell.
Umm... Where do they say that they cannot feel their own bodies? I don't remember hearing that anywhere. Why would they set it up that way? It is useful to be able to set up the bodies to have feeling, and one would think fairly simple to connect that feeling to the mind. Being able to turn off any pain at will is not the same as not ever having a sense of touch.
philosophical theory that suggests when technology progresses so far that A.I. becomes self-aware, the signifigance of being human is extinguished.
Why would being human become insignificant? For that matter, what is the significance of being human (I mean, isn't it up to each of us to decide what makes humanity so special)? If the significance of being human for me were something as straightforward as being able to think intellectually, creating complex things with my own will, and having relationships/normal interactions with other humans, then the rise of super-AI self-awareness doesn't exactly take away the significance of being human for me, even if the AI can do all the same stuff as me and more...
Last edited by sonic on Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ghost »

philosophical theory that suggests when technology progresses so far that A.I. becomes self-aware, the signifigance of being human is extinguished.
Why would being human become insignificant? For that matter, what is the significance of being human (I mean, isn't it up to each of us to decide what makes humanity so special)? If the significance of being human for me were something as straightforward as being able to think intellectually, creating complex things with my own will, and having relationships/normal interactions with other humans, then the rise of super-AI self-awareness doesn't exactly take away the significance of being human for me, even if the AI can do all the same stuff as me and more...

I agree with that, but, that's not all it would mean if a super A.I. where to come into being. You would have to consider that the A.I. would have some kind of writes, and as such it would be intitaled to the same laws and cosstomes that we injoy as humans. But more to the point, as a sentiont being it would be able to challange the vary claim that humanity has on the world.
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