Mythology and Religious symbolism in GitS 1

[Elmo]

Well this is something I've been wondering about the meaning of ever since I first saw GitS. What is the purpose of the references to mythology/religion?

Oshii’s films commonly use themes of mythology or religion to get the viewer to begin thinking critically about the hegemony of power structures of religion and technology. This is very apparent in Oshii Mamoru’s more recent science fiction films; Mobile Police Patlabor: The Movie, Mobile Police Patlabor: The Movie 2 and Avalon.

All of Oshii’s science fiction occur within an institutional setting depicting a problematic hierarchy of power. In Patlabor the story concerns members of a police force that wear robotic exoskeletons, Motoko Kusanagi is a section 9 government operative and occasional assasin, Avalon is set in the structured world of a total immersion game. The plots of these films show, in an exploration of how the human subject is shaped by its own semi-conscious complicity in discursive fields of power relations, how each of these systems can dominate the individuals within these groups.

In GitS all of the religious symbolism(The halo surronding 'crucified' puppetmaster & the descending angel at the merging of Motoko/2501) and the religion based quotations are controlled by, or invoked by the puppetmaster acting in the role of antagonist. By associating religious quotations and metaphor with the source of conflict within the afore mentioned instiutional structures(which bear the protaganist), Oshii sets up an eventual confrontation between mythos(mythology) and logos(reason). But the solution given is not a conflict with mythology. Instead, Motoko is able to bring about a positive change through reasoned interaction with and manipulation of these mythological structures.

IMO by including this mythological vien in ghost in the shell Oshii is implying that rather than allowing the hegemony of dogmatic mythology and control structures to force us down a particular path, we should manipulate, change and reshape our mythology to aid interaction with a world where technology is becomming increasingly internal.

well that's my current thinking anyway, what do you lot think the meaning of the mythological elements of ghost in the shell are?

...feel free to rip my POV to shreds peeps, it's a fairly jumbled one. - i'm as confused as george bush at a peace summit!

[base of the pillar]

Your idea about the conflict between increasing machine based society and old mythos is an interesting one. I agree with you idea about altering religon to suit a society. If you look you'll notice that the conflict between technology and old religion is already underway. At its basest level aren't the terrorists attacking America religion facing technology.

Also if you like this idea of technology and religion facing off I would recommend the Butlerian Jihad which takes place in the Dune universe and is about a group of people who rise up, for religous reasons, when they believe technology has grown to far.

[douyang]

I always thought of the "war on terror" being a conflict between religion and the norms, values, and institutions of modernity. A war between the freedom, equality, and tolerance of modern day democracies and ancient pre-scientific, pre enlightenment religious dogmas.

[base of the pillar]

Yes but at its basest levels what they hate in our culture is how advanced we are which is equated with how advanced our technology is. After all a culture in many respects can be well understood by looking at its level of advancement in technology. The fundementalists are just that old literal dogma.

[Elmo]

I normal go with the idea that what 'they hate in our culture' is all the violent foriegn policy, support of muderous regimes & groups; involvement in Biological Weapons, the many human rights abuses, the self serving corrupt governemnt, WMD, Land Mines, The Arms Trade, that we have a self-glorifying biased and sometimes laughable view of history and world politics and of course manipulation of the middle east for fun and profit(using the US as 'our culture' here, but this is all standard behaviour for any colonial power).
Jealousy over technology just doesn't come into it IMO. the 'war on terror' rather than being a mythology vs. reason war, seems to me like it's a mythology vs. mythology war - it doesn't matter wether you use religious texts, patriotism, fanticism, pretty words like 'freedom' or 'jihad' it's all mythos - 'the war on terror', even the name is open to the interpretation of mythos; a war on an emotion.

The war on Terror Vs. Peace, now that would be a conflict between myth and reason.

</RANT>

[base of the pillar]

What the terrorists hate is, as far as I've heard, the glutonness American culture. We are this way because of our technology. All that they hate in our culture can be tied to our advanced technology.

[Elmo]

well whichever way you look at it the use of mythology in practical desicions is a mistake(e.g. in theocratic governments/wars, IntellegentDesign, Jihad). ‘Logos’ is the rational, pragmatic and scientific thought that enables men and women to function in this world. Unlike ‘mythos’, ‘logos’ must relate exactly to facts and correspond to external reality. ‘Logos’ is practical and logical. Myth is not reasonable by far. But ‘logos’ has its limitations too. Reasoned arguments are no help in making sense of tragedy or assigning a non-economic value to human life. Our practical actions have no inherent meanings, it is through our own minds we give the world meaning - this is where we should use myth to assist us. That's why I like the notions Oshii seems to suggest on the subject. In the events leading up to the merge mythos is used to give meaning and logos is used in making the big practical desicions. On the other hand after the merge logos/technology becomes ultimately internal within motoko, taking control of - what is traditionally the realm of mythos - her mind and the very essence of life creation itself. Does this mean a more confrontational message is intended, a complete rejection of myth/religion/superstition?





...incidentally i just remembered that there's a line in the theme song about 'an angel will descend at a wedding'. Not making a point there, i just thought it was a fun parallel to the descending angel at the merging.

[Snatcher]

I find your way of thinking very interesting. And I loved what it puts on the table regarding my interpretation of GITS. My background is more on the technical side (AI, Programming, Systems, Cognitive science, etc) and these are ideas that I never though about in GITS.

The point I see as even more interesting is that I've always seen the part of the Puppetmaster as the result of logic. Having a life form born from memes is the logical follow up to them being replicants as the genes. But, being a life form and not an AI born out of information (evolution by replication), it is not a completely logical entity.. it is bound to the same rules as any intelligence of the type that we know (bound to make mistakes, curiosity and the process of learning). Thus, although it is born from ideas it is not a Logos entity. Even so, I believe that it represents a duality of being born out of Logos and being just an abstract life form (although you could say that we are just information structures represented in matter) it has those mythos elements but brought to a human level. The puppetmaster is indeed the antagonist, but in the end that is a very gray area... it is just the antagonist when viewed in a particular context (as always).

I'll have to watch the movie again with this in mind to make up my mind on what impact this could have on my perception of the film. Have you seen Innocence btw? I'd be interested to hear your opinions on that movie as well I'll also have to watch that one again with this in mind).

[geckochan]

That's interesting - I hadn't noticed most religious and mythological references in the film occuring around the Puppetmaster. Actually, it's been ages since I last watched it, but when Motoko quotes Corinthians that's also the Puppetmaster talking isn't it?
Naturally the very title suggests confict between reason and soul/mythos/spirituality, which is of course Motoko's conflict, but I wouldn't really say the Puppetmaster is an antagonist. And it's ironic that it's through an artificially originated being that Motoko is able to return to natural cycles - which is what I see the merging as achieving - the ability to die, to unite, to reproduce - all of those things that Motoko's cyborg "improvements" denied her. So if the Puppetmaster represents mythos, then mythos is also linked to the naturally occuring, to "life" - its manipulation and control by hegemonic institutions leads to its negation, its subordination by technology makes it null. The merging shows truth-seeking as a natural human aspect, the stripping of which has dehumanized, and which needs to be reclaimed. Personal mythos versus institutionally-controlled mythos I guess.

[Togusa]

Your idea about the conflict between increasing machine based society and old mythos is an interesting one. I agree with you idea about altering religon to suit a society. If you look you'll notice that the conflict between technology and old religion is already underway. At its basest level aren't the terrorists attacking America religion facing technology.

Also if you like this idea of technology and religion facing off I would recommend the Butlerian Jihad which takes place in the Dune universe and is about a group of people who rise up, for religous reasons, when they believe technology has grown to far.

The tension between high-technology and tradition is an interesting one. Could it bet that Section 9, and perhaps Motoko in particular represnt attempts to redeem or even construct a positive mythology for high-technology in what seems an increasing dystopian world? Note the role of Section 9 as "the good guys" in the context of a morally ambigous and often corrupt government system. Similarly, perhaps GitS attempts to portray the positive possibilities in a high-technology world even as dystopian realities seem the norm everywhere around it.

Just a thought - I know there's a good chance I'm wandering very far out on a limb here.

[funknotik]

Well this is something I've been wondering about the meaning of ever since I first saw GitS. What is the purpose of the references to mythology/religion?

Oshii’s films commonly use themes of mythology or religion to get the viewer to begin thinking critically about the hegemony of power structures of religion and technology. This is very apparent in Oshii Mamoru’s more recent science fiction films; Mobile Police Patlabor: The Movie, Mobile Police Patlabor: The Movie 2 and Avalon.

All of Oshii’s science fiction occur within an institutional setting depicting a problematic hierarchy of power. In Patlabor the story concerns members of a police force that wear robotic exoskeletons, Motoko Kusanagi is a section 9 government operative and occasional assasin, Avalon is set in the structured world of a total immersion game. The plots of these films show, in an exploration of how the human subject is shaped by its own semi-conscious complicity in discursive fields of power relations, how each of these systems can dominate the individuals within these groups.

In GitS all of the religious symbolism(The halo surronding 'crucified' puppetmaster & the descending angel at the merging of Motoko/2501) and the religion based quotations are controlled by, or invoked by the puppetmaster acting in the role of antagonist. By associating religious quotations and metaphor with the source of conflict within the afore mentioned instiutional structures(which bear the protaganist), Oshii sets up an eventual confrontation between mythos(mythology) and logos(reason). But the solution given is not a conflict with mythology. Instead, Motoko is able to bring about a positive change through reasoned interaction with and manipulation of these mythological structures.

IMO by including this mythological vien in ghost in the shell Oshii is implying that rather than allowing the hegemony of dogmatic mythology and control structures to force us down a particular path, we should manipulate, change and reshape our mythology to aid interaction with a world where technology is becomming increasingly internal.

well that's my current thinking anyway, what do you lot think the meaning of the mythological elements of ghost in the shell are?

...feel free to rip my POV to shreds peeps, it's a fairly jumbled one. - i'm as confused as george bush at a peace summit!

I really like your analysis and I came to a similar conclusion. The religious and mythological elements are also placed in scenes where characters apear to be transcending or becoming more than themselves. Aside from the fact that in the GITS world within a world, reality is really blurry. Since you can actually live other peoples dreams and fantasies like in the GITS novel The Lost Memory.

[gareth]

The point I see as even more interesting is that I've always seen the part of the Puppetmaster as the result of logic. Having a life form born from memes is the logical follow up to them being replicants as the genes. But, being a life form and not an AI born out of information (evolution by replication), it is not a completely logical entity.. it is bound to the same rules as any intelligence of the type that we know (bound to make mistakes, curiosity and the process of learning). Thus, although it is born from ideas it is not a Logos entity. Even so, I believe that it represents a duality of being born out of Logos and being just an abstract life form (although you could say that we are just information structures represented in matter) it has those mythos elements but brought to a human level. The puppetmaster is indeed the antagonist, but in the end that is a very gray area... it is just the antagonist when viewed in a particular context (as always).

I think you raise an interesting issue regarding the origins of the puppetmaster insomuch as any extension of the human architecture will ultimately result in unpredictability. Does this mean, though, that the architectural extensions (i.e. "information structures represented in matter") are actually illogical, or that the puppetmaster is the result of a fundamental flaw in human logic?

I think Donna Haraway doesn't quite come to a conclusion with this issue either when she promotes the Cyborg (in the Cyborg Manifesto) as able to supersede and deliver itself from the flaws of its creators through forgetting them. It seems to me that (as a result of memetics) that any flaws intrinsic to the creator will be retained within the creation. Perhaps the idea of forgetting is being presented as some form of evolution though... (This is probably the wrong essay to quote to be honest as it's related to feminism and completely rooted in a cold war vision of the cyborg...)

Any thoughts on whether the puppetmaster is truly representative of an extension of our own architecture?

Also - http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/articles/techuman.html

Interesting essay on a similar topic.

Pretentious spiel finished.

[Sergeant X]

Yes but at its basest levels what they hate in our culture is how advanced we are which is equated with how advanced our technology is. After all a culture in many respects can be well understood by looking at its level of advancement in technology. The fundementalists are just that old literal dogma.

Nah man, the 'war on terror' is conflict between Empire and lines of flight.

Motoko even says that their own university discouse'd [sic Lacan] intelligence agency is technically a terrorist op.

Personally I think that's a part of the revelation that she has that leaves her so shooken up at the end of the second series

I think Donna Haraway doesn't quite come to a conclusion with this issue either when she promotes the Cyborg (in the Cyborg Manifesto) as able to supersede and deliver itself from the flaws of its creators through forgetting them. It seems to me that (as a result of memetics) that any flaws intrinsic to the creator will be retained within the creation. Perhaps the idea of forgetting is being presented as some form of evolution though... (This is probably the wrong essay to quote to be honest as it's related to feminism and completely rooted in a cold war vision of the cyborg...)

Despite the fanservice I think that GiTS is fairly feminist. Oshii's view towards Harraway's piece seems somewhat conflicted to me

I mean he opens the 2nd film with a quote from Tomorrow's Eve only to completely contrast the sentiment there is in that novel by having the whole thing revolve around commodified sex dolls.

It also sort of deconstructs the whole genesis thing by having the Major appear as the 'holy spirit'