Gynoid functionalism; maps, territories and chinese rooms...

Discuss the philosophy found in the various incarnations of Ghost in the Shell

Moderator: sonic

Post Reply
User avatar
Elmo_Redux
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:49 am
Location: CLASSIFIED
Contact:

Gynoid functionalism; maps, territories and chinese rooms...

Post by Elmo_Redux »

In innocence we're presented with the idea of a roughly human-like robot with a human soul, but what if Locus Solus had gone with another development route in making realistic human-like dolls. What if they constructed a doll with all the rules that describe the way a real human being behaves. This would be a being indistinguishable from a normal human being except that it lacks conscious experience, qualia of sensory experiences, sapience or sentience. Were it to be poked in the eye for example, it would not feel any pain. It would however behave exactly as if it did feel the pain (e.g. yelps, winces, kicks you in the groin), but it would not actually have the experience of pain as the average human does, it merely performs the appropriate functions as part of a syntactic set of rules.

My main question to you is; so long as the Gynoid performs the same functional roles, with the same causal relations between inputs and outputs, should it be considered as a real mind with sapience, sentience etc.?

Secondly, would this gynoid have a human mind?

Thirdly, is it alive?


//apologies for poor sentence structure or grammar, I've been awake and typing for far too long today to avoid mistakes//
[IWNJACTWHSLMFAM]
User avatar
rcog3
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:15 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Gynoid functionalism; maps, territories and chinese room

Post by rcog3 »

Elmo_Redux wrote: My main question to you is; so long as the Gynoid performs the same functional roles, with the same causal relations between inputs and outputs, should it be considered as a real mind with sapience, sentience etc.?
As far as I'm concerned, yes. Even if the internal mecanism is different, I think that if something can simulate the real thing perfectly, then it should be considered to _be_ the real thing. In the end, most humans are not "implemented" in the same way (as specified by the DNA). As for self awareness, I think there is a functional aspect linked to that (and therefore a perfect simulator would need to simulate it too) i.e. this is not something that happens magically; there are different levels, some animals have different degree of self awareness, etc.

As for the soul, nothing at the present even suggest (in a verifiable way) the existence of such thing. I'm not sure if the intended meaning was lost in translation (japanese speakers anyone?), but I was under the impression that the soul used by Locus Solus was only the (very complex) personality of the original humans, simply because building a rich and distinct personality from scratch was too complex (and costly) compared to simply copying an already existing one.
User avatar
GhostLine
Posts: 638
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:34 pm
Location: "the net is vast and infinite..."

Post by GhostLine »

interesting topic. my theory is that people will actually want something more idealized to cater to fantasy than a doll that is indistinguishable from a real human.
User avatar
AI
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:21 pm
Location: An Insane Asylum

Post by AI »

wouldn't it have to have to have free will in order for it to be human, such a doll would be of no commercial value and so the chances of a commercial entity such as Locus Solus would not develop such a being.

Having said that if a being that acted in a completely human way in my opinion be human ( much like project 2501 ) regardless of how they are created.
[MKFC] [BFC] [TTAASI] [LDU] [LMFC]
"Who can gaze into the mirror without becoming evil? A mirror does not reflect evil, but creates it."
Image
User avatar
THYREN
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:08 am
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Post by THYREN »

Interesting. After watching these 2 videos (see links below), I would say that even though robots already look very realistic (see first video) and can mimic human reactions (see the 2nd video, at about the half, when the guy is touching her breast :shock: ), it is still only programmed to do it, so it is definitely not human ... but for how long?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biBHJvGx3s8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yomx7bXMf2U
Why drink and drive when you can smoke and fly ?

Image
User avatar
Jeff Georgeson
Site Admin
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:40 am

Post by Jeff Georgeson »

I agree. I think the second video shows a robot with programmed response very well ... or, rather, a very well-done robot. But it is all "set" programming; Aiko does not have a "mind," and she is not able to "think" for herself. This is one of the problems I have with the "AI" conversationalists used by various companies on the Web (like ALICE)--they may have a complex set of algorithms for interaction, but it's very easy to get them to fail a Turing test.

I still think it's an incredible accomplishment to get all the sensory inputs working (and match them with some type of output), especially the optical readers (able to see colors and interpret equations). At least we may have the "shell" ready for whatever we put in it.
Jeff Georgeson
Quantum Tiger Games
www.quantumtigergames.com
the cat is out of the box
User avatar
Epiphany
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:48 am
Location: South Florida

Post by Epiphany »

Funny but it seems to me the Sex Doll industry will be the first to sell this stuff. :shock: Reminds me of the Lucy Lu-bot Episode of Futurama.

Humans are the only species on the planet that will create our own replacements and then willingly walk into extinction...... :roll:
User avatar
THYREN
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:08 am
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Post by THYREN »

Epiphany wrote:Humans are the only species on the planet that will create our own replacements and then willingly walk into extinction...... :roll:
I don't necessarily agree, as robots could be used to explore (and conquer) the rest of the solar system, especially because they won't suffer the same physiological (bone and muscle loss) and psychological problems as humans would.

But that's a totally different topic, and I don't want to get my fingers snapped by you know who :lol:
Why drink and drive when you can smoke and fly ?

Image
User avatar
sonic
Special
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:03 pm

Post by sonic »

Hey - you're proposing Blade Runner (*sort of*. Possibly)! Better make the robots completely mindless, or else unhappy human-like "Replicants" may be coming back to Earth looking to get revenge for all their unfair treatment...

I think Epiphany is right, the "shadier" industries in society will probably be among the first to see the commercial benefit in this kind of stuff. It's my hope that if the future ever worked out anything like it's been predicted in numerous cyberpunk stories that we'd have the good sense to make some laws and guidelines on the matter early on, before it gets out of hand. It could get really ugly if people ever gave the things "minds", like in GitS or whatever.
User avatar
THYREN
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:08 am
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Post by THYREN »

It's quite funny because I've seen a very interesting documentary tonight on CBC (the Canadian equivalent of the BBC) called Mechanical Love and half of it shows how robot pets (a seal called Paro) can be used as therapeutic treatment for elders (reminded a bit SSS actually).

The other half portrays a Japanese engineer working on a 'geminoid', which is basically a copy of himself. The interesting part is how his wife and daughter interact with his 'other' himself. This reminded a lot about the android in the Alien movies :shock:

I hope you'll have the chance to watch it :wink:
Why drink and drive when you can smoke and fly ?

Image
User avatar
Jeff Georgeson
Site Admin
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:40 am

Post by Jeff Georgeson »

That looks very interesting! I hope they show it on the Discovery Channel or something here.

It would be pretty strange to stare down at the "you" that you're building ... I'd want to create an entirely new person/appearance.
Jeff Georgeson
Quantum Tiger Games
www.quantumtigergames.com
the cat is out of the box
Post Reply