Yeah.. sorry for the bash. I did say "hacker geeks" though... you admitting you're a hacker geek then? LOL
A facility that brainwashes children? The assault on the brainwashing facility,
lol, when I watched this film the chapter from the first manga did go through my mind briefly, and it also did at the end of Innocence, too. The way they talk to the girl at the end of Innocence reminds me a bit of the way she talks to the little boy who wants them to rescue him in the manga (for some reason I never did like that chapter as much).
Mostly in the SAC film, I saw what you were saying Epiphany in that the presence of both Oshii's GitS films was there. The Batou looking for the Major and wondering what her involvement in the case was was a direct nod to Innocence, as is the stuff about her going off and doing her own thing in her own way to help. And loads of references to MMI it seems too, with the way the various dummy bodies operate and get discarded, and the presence of Max and Musashi etcetera (who thankfully are not those weird doughnut-lipped bots
)
I don't see those movie elements as a direct explanation for this film's storyline however, as all of the SAC stuff and Oshii's films are intended to be *separate entities*- there are parallels, but things happen in very different ways. As of yet, GitS does not operate in the same way as the Leijiverse (Leiji Matsumoto) in terms of it all vaguely blending. The way they bring shades of the Oshii films in is both a tribute and a fun fan thing, but is also more intentionally perhaps an attempt to evoke the feeling of a theme of karmic fate and connection between the many threads
different versions of GitS have gone along- perhaps a nod to what the Puppet Master says about karmic connection in the manga chapter. It's like they are acknowledging the 'spiritual succession' amongst GitS things, and that is very warm and sweet in it's execution, in a way.
Obviously also, these nods to Oshii film events, although they're backstory can't be acknowledged as a fact of this continuity, do help the fans along in enriching the hints to possible answers over the Puppeteer question and what really happened provided at the end, because if you are aware of the meaning of some of these references and they're background in the Oshii films, your mind will be racing trying to bring that non-SAC stuff into it and piece it together.
I was not confused by the ending (apart from one point where I was a bit like, "Huh? Why are you guys 'jumping tracks' so suddenly like that?"), I pretty much saw right away what they were doing and how they were doing it in the storytelling. In the ending (the last 10 minutes and under of the film), they actually give you several
possible explanations for "whodunnit" (or what is really behind the events in the story, and even what really happened in the story) almost all at once one right after the other. In my opinion, they do not actually officially commit to one of the answers, nor to the "it's all those answers altogether" option either. You'd have to lean towards what the "Puppeteer" said about being the sentient unconcious blah blah blah, since that seems to be the stronger option, but they certainly do not
commit to it, and in the last few minutes it'd be a bit blunt and weird if they did.
And of course it was intentional, btw- I think it is implied that it's deliberate in the way that it is. I'm not thrilled with it however as it seems like they are relying on some slightly annoying tricks and the audience/fans' willing participation in those to make it all work as an ending. Certainly it's a different kind of ending and I'm not saying it's entirely wrong for the way the film is to end it that way, it's just for me that -especially that kind of pacing- feels a bit shaky. And I still don't really like the explanations they gave that much, or the reliance on the "the net is vast" line feeling at the end of the film (an echo of a previous movie's plot set in a different continuity from the current one should not really be an explanation or an end unto itself- that is a bit "been there, done that" already; though at the same time I wouldn't say I hate revisiting an old friend with new mindgames... [argh, I'm probably not making any sense now]. And for now it's just irrelevent anyway, because it's not really set in stone until they do a follow-up. Maybe I sound hard about this matter, but even knowing how the SAC series operates, because this is being marketed as a movie my expectations are set very high; it is not like TV episodes where I could forgive things here and there, with a movie it should be a perfectly polished example of how the shows strengths can be made to be the best you can make them and showcase them. Or at least, it feels like you should treat a nice glossy production like this that way; I don't know I don't make up the rules for how to do a movie- there aren't really any except for personal ones. All I saying is that parts of the SAC movie -including the ending- fell a bit short of this for me, and I think I'm justified and fair in saying it (well- okay maybe you are only 'justified' if you'd made some sort of masterpiece of a film yourself; perhaps Mamoru Oshii would be allowed, lol- the rest of us should shut up if we haven't done it better?). However, there were some moments of greatness in it and overall I liked the film. The scene concerning Togusa and his daughter did make it a much stronger piece; very good moment.
Oh darn, this is the reason I stopped posting on boards list this for a while... I'm finding myself debating the finer points of the SAC film. Not something I thought I would have invested so much time in.
Eh... Bottom line, it was a worthwhile film to see, not perfect but I found some originality and genuinely good scenes in it to justify watching it. To date I haven't found any of the SAC stuff as polished or strong and perfectly-realised as the two Oshii GitS films though- maybe that's just my personal taste. It's also a TV series, and almost all longer TV series type anime have some stuff about them that could stand some trimming. Generally speaking SAC series, like the SAC film, do have some genuinely notable and stronger parts. I still like the episode about the movie theater in the first series ^_^
-> all puffed out over film discussing, now. Got to stay away from this place for a week; can't get to wrapped up in discussing movies, lol.