Just to clarify these wernt the subs off the uk DVD, these were the subs of another version of the film I have. I will have to go back and check the subs again on the uk DVD, there may be a 3rd set of dialog lo, but i imagine they are closer the dubl. Haraway still spoke about the human/machine relationship, there were simillarities between the two. There is a lot more of these scenes that dont match, on the way there in the car batou talks about the major in the dub. In the subs he talks about his brother who he rarely sees anymore. Two completely different subjects. this is what the lab lady says in the subs I got...
H = lablady
T = togusa
b = Batou
H: What are you hear for? Now is not a good time.
T: My name is Koan Kyukan Togusa, I'm part of the investigation
H: I was told to expect you. It was shot with this 50 caliber hollow point bullet.
B: It killed three of our men, so sorry if it was damaged a little.
H: Two seconds before that, it sent out a signal then self-destructed.
(Batou stops and him and Togusa look at eachother for a second)
T: It killed itself? who was the target?
H: Harabe (now u can clearly hear her say this in japanese, so that line is a definat correct)
T: what does that man have to do with this case?
H: he used to boast that he could put a human conciousness into a machine, but that dicussion ended with his imprisonment for illegal dissection.
T: when human beings are hurt that is an unforgivable failure of medicine, you ever ehar from this guy again?
H: We just wanted to explore the border between man and machine, no, i never saw him again.
T: Perhapse you can tell me why it wanted to kill itself.
H: I really dont know, these machiens arnt suposed to have emotions, theres just no pride in construction these days
T: what are u doing right now?
H: there's been a change in model and we are adjusting to the new model
T; Is that so?
H: Down here we forget about whats human and whats machine, when the new model came out, it was like bringing a new life into the world. Have u ever thought of using robots?
T: never
H: humans and robots are different, although they can distinguish between black and white, they dont know their significance, that is the level of humans. The trouble with robots is they can only see in straight lines, they can't imagine so they cant deceive, these robots are very idealistic. why can't humans attain such splendor without our bodies to defile us? If we could we'd have a perfect world. why cant humans use the robots as an example. do you have any kids?
T: Yes, a daughter,
H: Humans usually train themselves to be human beings. they segregate themselves into roles, but where can a child find a perfect model to learn from? Obviously no human is perfect, so they cant follow a specific human being, little girls use female dolls to practice being women, playing with dolls at a young age teaches them to be a woman.
t: what are you trying to imply?
H: A childs smiling face is learnt from the false smile of a doll
T: but childeren are not dolls
B: humans, machines and animals have countless forms, the doll is the most perfect and the most sterile form. It is the form of counciousness that knows no pain. Thats my opinion.
T; well, that may be true, i want to hear the signal the 2052 model robot sent
H okay. the signal survived because the body was very well made
T: what was it made for?
H: the body was made for someone looking for a good time.
T: what?
H; its a sex toy, there is a big market for partners who feel no pain and never complain.
T; so this is the secret the bereaved families arnt suposed to know
H: I got a call yesterday saying the shipment to america had a unit missing, i didnt udnerstand at the time but...
T: but?
H: then i found this..(she plays the help me message from the dolls memory)
B; time for us to go
(togusa turns back to the lady as he leaves)
T: sorry i was rude earlier.
H: My comments about childeren were only speculative, i may have gone too far
T; thank you for your time
H: if anything else comes up ill contact you
Then they leave, and have a totally different conversation in the car to the one on the dub. you can see the themes are simillar in this version, but every line is almost entirely different. what would be a big help is if anyone who knowxs japanese fluently can verify is haraway works for a forenzic police lab or if that place is actually owned byt he company who makes the dolls. that would sort out which has gone astray pretty quickly.
Innocence Ending happy ending or not? !//!Spoilers Ahoy!//!
Moderator: sonic
who knows it been burnt off a friend, god knows where he got it. I'm watchin my uk dvd now, i got the english subs and english dialog going at the same time, almost every sentence is different but they are saying basicly the same things, unlike this other version. It is not the only ones i have like this, I have diff versions of subs for the original GitS too, and they have differing dialog for scenes. Makes u wonder which ever ones are wrong, where did they get all this dialog from? Is it not easier just to translate rather than conjuring up something that fits the story but just isnt there? Odd. Also odd that some things make sense in one version, but not in another, and then u fidn a situation thats the other way round, something makes sense in the previously oddball version. Does anyone else feel a bit unsure about the fact Batou was meant to have shot this thing with a shotgun? that clearly wasnt what happened whats up with that.
])R@G()N wrote:Does anyone else feel a bit unsure about the fact Batou was meant to have shot this thing with a shotgun? that clearly wasnt what happened whats up with that.
Batou did shoot her with the shotgun. You see the shell flying past the screen, accompanied with a loud boom - it's pretty obvious what happened, if you ask me.
Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!
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AlphonseVanWorden
- Posts: 170
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Guns and Ammo Redux.
])R@G()N, a minor point:
Haraway's right: A .50-caliber hollow point wouldn't have messed up the gynoid as badly as double-ought buck fired at close range. There's a bit of a grim joke here. A .50-cal hollow point would've done some lethal damage, but the entry wound-- the external damage--would've been different.
An interesting aside: Folks generally use hollow point bullets and buckshot when hunting because such ammunition increases the likelihood of a kill. The moral argument is that this is more humane than causing injuries which might not kill the animal/target.
Hollow points expand on impact, while buckshot expands upon firing and scatters multiple pellets/projectiles (usually but not always lead), not to mention the fact that the granulated shot buffer-- buffer's the material that fills the spaces between the buckshot's lead components-- spreads out when the shot leaves the barrel. It's the buckshot pattern that results in the multiple entry wounds in the gynoid's torso; this is why Haraway's scan of the gynoid's wounds reads SAME SHOT SHELL-- as in, "same shotshell", meaning, the wounds resulted from the same shot, the same shell. We see Bullet Hole #1, Bullet Hole #2, Bullet Hole #3, then we see BULLET HOLE IDENTIFIED- SAME SHOT SHELL. "Shotshell" just means a shotgun round. The "bullet wounds" seen on the gynoid were formed by the dispersal of projectiles (pellets acting as bullets) from the buck, the wounds being clustered but spread in a tight, narrow pattern...
If you have more than one entry wound, you have to go through all the wounds and verify that they were made by the same weapon. Why? There's always the chance that someone could've shot the victim with a smaller caliber weapon, then someone else could've shot the target with a shotgun, and you have to figure out who did what and when it happened if you're performing an autopsy (or the mechanical equivalent of one) to go on the record.
(Sad as this sounds, there have been cases of people shooting folks who've already been shot and killed by someone. For legal purposes and for record keeping, it's important to determine what happened at which point in time, and I imagine that in an information-driven society such as the one in GitS, the importance of such data would be even greater than it is in the present day. After all, people could get ghost-hacked and framed for a killing that someone else committed, a second "killing" could be staged to cover up an actual murder, etc. And it's data gathering and analysis that leads to Haraway stating that the gynoid tried killing itself before Batou fired. The flesh was torn off the chest, then the shot was fired...consistent with other things Haraway has seen...)
With a hollow point, you'd have one entry wound and fewer headaches for the examiner. And that's the grim joke.
And given the nature of complex information systems, damage to a gynoid or android's body could make some kinds of data recovery difficult, depending upon the severity and location of the damage. A body is itself a sort of record, in many important ways...
It was a darkly humorous and completely deadpan comment on the doctor's part. Kind of equivalent to saying, "Thanks for making my life harder, boys..."
There might've been other entry wounds which were catalogued prior to partial reconstruction of the torso, or weren't in that shot of the film. Depends on how a gynoid/android "autopsy" works...
None of the cops standing outside the alley had anything like Batou's combat shotgun. (Of course they didn't; he wouldn't be Batou if he didn't have a nice, big gun, one that put the other people to shame.)
We saw and heard the blast, and the spent casing flew into the frame. Haraway's point seems to have been, "You could've offed the gynoid using a really nasty round without making such a mess of her..."
Haraway asks, "She was trying to commit suicide before you shot her, right?" And that's what we saw-- the gynoid ripped off her skin, her face came apart/opened, and we cut to a shot of Batou's face, we saw the flash and heard the blast, and we saw the shell fly into the frame...
Then we cut to the opening credits.
In the subtitled version I have, it's pretty clear that Haraway was talking about Batou shooting the gynoid. And to be fair, it makes more sense: Haraway said that Batou used double-ought buck on the Hadaly and mentioned that it would've been easier to reconstruct the gynoid if he'd used a .50-caliber hollow point bullet. The spent round we saw in Haraway's office was a double-ought buckshot casing, and Batou took a combat shotgun into the alley. In fact, he made sure that a round was chambered before going after the gynoid. And it's the same casing we saw flying across the screen when Batou shot the gynoid.some of the english dialog doesnt make sense, she seems to imply Batou shot the robot with a shotgun, when that was not what we saw at the begining, the subtitled version doesnt do this, instead she just says the robot 'was' shot with it, she doesnt imply it was Batou.
Haraway's right: A .50-caliber hollow point wouldn't have messed up the gynoid as badly as double-ought buck fired at close range. There's a bit of a grim joke here. A .50-cal hollow point would've done some lethal damage, but the entry wound-- the external damage--would've been different.
An interesting aside: Folks generally use hollow point bullets and buckshot when hunting because such ammunition increases the likelihood of a kill. The moral argument is that this is more humane than causing injuries which might not kill the animal/target.
Hollow points expand on impact, while buckshot expands upon firing and scatters multiple pellets/projectiles (usually but not always lead), not to mention the fact that the granulated shot buffer-- buffer's the material that fills the spaces between the buckshot's lead components-- spreads out when the shot leaves the barrel. It's the buckshot pattern that results in the multiple entry wounds in the gynoid's torso; this is why Haraway's scan of the gynoid's wounds reads SAME SHOT SHELL-- as in, "same shotshell", meaning, the wounds resulted from the same shot, the same shell. We see Bullet Hole #1, Bullet Hole #2, Bullet Hole #3, then we see BULLET HOLE IDENTIFIED- SAME SHOT SHELL. "Shotshell" just means a shotgun round. The "bullet wounds" seen on the gynoid were formed by the dispersal of projectiles (pellets acting as bullets) from the buck, the wounds being clustered but spread in a tight, narrow pattern...
If you have more than one entry wound, you have to go through all the wounds and verify that they were made by the same weapon. Why? There's always the chance that someone could've shot the victim with a smaller caliber weapon, then someone else could've shot the target with a shotgun, and you have to figure out who did what and when it happened if you're performing an autopsy (or the mechanical equivalent of one) to go on the record.
(Sad as this sounds, there have been cases of people shooting folks who've already been shot and killed by someone. For legal purposes and for record keeping, it's important to determine what happened at which point in time, and I imagine that in an information-driven society such as the one in GitS, the importance of such data would be even greater than it is in the present day. After all, people could get ghost-hacked and framed for a killing that someone else committed, a second "killing" could be staged to cover up an actual murder, etc. And it's data gathering and analysis that leads to Haraway stating that the gynoid tried killing itself before Batou fired. The flesh was torn off the chest, then the shot was fired...consistent with other things Haraway has seen...)
With a hollow point, you'd have one entry wound and fewer headaches for the examiner. And that's the grim joke.
And given the nature of complex information systems, damage to a gynoid or android's body could make some kinds of data recovery difficult, depending upon the severity and location of the damage. A body is itself a sort of record, in many important ways...
It was a darkly humorous and completely deadpan comment on the doctor's part. Kind of equivalent to saying, "Thanks for making my life harder, boys..."
There might've been other entry wounds which were catalogued prior to partial reconstruction of the torso, or weren't in that shot of the film. Depends on how a gynoid/android "autopsy" works...
None of the cops standing outside the alley had anything like Batou's combat shotgun. (Of course they didn't; he wouldn't be Batou if he didn't have a nice, big gun, one that put the other people to shame.)
We saw and heard the blast, and the spent casing flew into the frame. Haraway's point seems to have been, "You could've offed the gynoid using a really nasty round without making such a mess of her..."
Haraway asks, "She was trying to commit suicide before you shot her, right?" And that's what we saw-- the gynoid ripped off her skin, her face came apart/opened, and we cut to a shot of Batou's face, we saw the flash and heard the blast, and we saw the shell fly into the frame...
Then we cut to the opening credits.
Such is the soul in the body: this world is like her little turf of grass, and the heaven o'er our heads, like her looking-glass, only gives us a miserable knowledge of the small compass of our prison. - Bosola, in John Webster's The Duchess of Malfi
Yes, I just watched it back and you do see the shell casing fly pasrt the screen, I had always presumed the bang was the gyanoid self destructing, thanks for clearing that up.
I mod fps computer games so working out the spread of shotgun pellets with different barrel lengths/cartrige gages etc and the small penitration/higher damage value of hollow points and other projectile physics is something ive sadly spent a fair amount of time looking into.
after watchin this scene on all 3 versions last night, i do think the subbed version on the UK DVD seemed to be the one I got along with the most. the old rip of it I have with subs she isnt even a forenzic examiner, and the dub version although most of whats said is the same (if a little shuffled around) on the uk subs, the dub i think gets her attitude all wrong when u listen to the original japanese actress. She is much calmer and must more dead pan. i feel the same for most of the voices though I must say, she is one in particular but in general I find the english dubs over acted and over simplistic. One thing to note about the old rip is it has all the references noted in also, ie this is a quote from the bible, psalm blah blah, which can be usefull to someone like me. I studied philosophy at college, but it only really touched on the philosophies of religion and some of the sources I have heard of but not personaly read, like buddist texts, or even things like milton.
I mod fps computer games so working out the spread of shotgun pellets with different barrel lengths/cartrige gages etc and the small penitration/higher damage value of hollow points and other projectile physics is something ive sadly spent a fair amount of time looking into.
after watchin this scene on all 3 versions last night, i do think the subbed version on the UK DVD seemed to be the one I got along with the most. the old rip of it I have with subs she isnt even a forenzic examiner, and the dub version although most of whats said is the same (if a little shuffled around) on the uk subs, the dub i think gets her attitude all wrong when u listen to the original japanese actress. She is much calmer and must more dead pan. i feel the same for most of the voices though I must say, she is one in particular but in general I find the english dubs over acted and over simplistic. One thing to note about the old rip is it has all the references noted in also, ie this is a quote from the bible, psalm blah blah, which can be usefull to someone like me. I studied philosophy at college, but it only really touched on the philosophies of religion and some of the sources I have heard of but not personaly read, like buddist texts, or even things like milton.