Inconsistensies

Gillsing · Post by **Gillsing** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:35 am

It could also be that Shirow feels that he can't control other people, so rather than trying to do so he just lets them do whatever they want (perhaps within reason). I'm pretty sure that's what I'd do if I ever created something, at least as long as I get paid when other people make money from my work.

MiNaeClem · Post by **MiNaeClem** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:25 am

I think Shirow likes what's been produced. He created Gits years ago and it's still reaching out to people. Even if they're produced by different directors or writers it is still Gits and Oshii is the creator. So I think he is proud.
-Sorry about the HUGE typo...

Lightice · Post by **Lightice** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:23 pm

MiNaeClem wrote:I think Oshii likes what's been produced. He created Gits years ago and it's still reaching out to people. Even if they're produced by different directors or writers it is still Gits and Oshii is the creator. So I think he is proud.

Oshii didn't create GitS. He made the movies. Shirow is the original creator and by definition his opinion matters the most.

Black Mamba · Post by **Black Mamba** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:37 pm

MiNaeClem wrote:I think Oshii likes what's been produced. He created Gits years ago and it's still reaching out to people. Even if they're produced by different directors or writers it is still Gits and Oshii is the creator. So I think he is proud.

And you call yourself a fan!

Eheh, just kidding. Although Shirow created the characters and the concept, Oshii really did take it and made it his own. So, in a way, I can see how your statement is correct. But Oshii did not create Ghost in the Shell, it was Shirow with his manga.

Buckledcranium · Post by **Buckledcranium** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:03 pm

the whole arguemnt is rubbish.

your arguemnt in a nutshell - a universe the exists on a cinema screen cannot be the same as that on a tv screen becasue they are different mediums.

1 word

The Animatrix.

Same universe - different syles. Atleast they kept things consistant. And didn't say "Oh yeah by the way - This is a different version of the matrix univers - cus ehhh they wanted to go in a differnet direction"

You've all made such a pethetic attempt to justify this.

SAC could extremly easily have been set before the films, and even continued between the films - minus the major - and adding new charaters. - Why is this such a reciulous idea?

Give me a few points why I'm wrong? Can any of you even do that?

Wouldn't it have been better to explore the aleady established universe some more? Why not flesh everything out further?

As I've pointed out twice - thats origionally what I thought was happening, this is the first place I was told that SAC was an entity onto itself and had nothing to do with Ghost in the Shell 1 or 2.

Ok - I respect the creative minds behind this franchise - I really do. What I just don't understand is how you all shamelessly stand by them, regardless of anything I say. All I'm saying is that SAC could have been made to co-incide with the movies - and I think none of you haven given a single credible point as to why they decided to effectivly split the franchise into 2 universes - the movies and the tv.

In my opinion - keep it whole - each could build upon its counterpart - and be headed up by totally different people - all they'd have to do is share their notes.

This has worked for the Matrix - this has worked for Starwars ( Might I point out Star Wars is Animation, Live Action Movies, Comics, Books and soon to be Live Action TV) - All of which exist within the same universe - all of which made by totally different people.

Do you see my point? It has been done - and done well. Why couldn't they do it the same thing with Ghost in the Shell films and SAC?

base of the pillar · Post by **base of the pillar** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:40 pm

With the Animatrix the anime's on it were, if I'm not mistaken, thought up by the Wachowski's, and they all came out before the second movie and were made with that movie's plot in mind. All the GITS mediums are done by different people who want to put their own spin on the main plot. Oh and no SAC could not have been set before the movie. Had they done this it would have made the plot of series needlessly complicated and would have been even more confusing then the AU world its in. Can you imagine the headache it would be to suddenly explain somewhere in the series why Motoko leaves and who the new characters would be. Also there are some simple plot inconsistincies when it comes to the two worlds. The main one I can think of is that in the movie Togusa has just joined the team right before the movie begins, but in the series he's benn there for a little while at least. I'm sure there are others if you look hard enough. I mean that was the point of this topic anyway.

Now think about every series you've seen that's been based on a movie. I don't know about you but I haven't seen a good one that I can think of. If SAC had been set in the movie universe it could have been as bad as some of those.

Also it seems to me that this whole argument is moot because unless you can somehow change the creaters minds SAC will still be in an alternate universe because that's the way the shows creator wants it to be.

Lightice · Post by **Lightice** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:22 am

Buckledcranium wrote: your arguemnt in a nutshell - a universe the exists on a cinema screen cannot be the same as that on a tv screen becasue they are different mediums.

You failed. That is, you've simplified our claims beyond recognition. I did not say that the same universe couldn't be approached in TV and movies. However, the universe decipted in Ghost in the Shell, the movie doesn't work very well as a TV-series. Also, although it would have been possible to make such a TV-series, it would have robbed Director Kamiyama from his freedom, which made the Stand Alone Complex more than just another spinoff from a popular theme. Kamiyama did something new, instead of aping Oshii and you complain because of that.

Sorry, but if you don't like that, ranting about it here won't earn you any sympathy.

All I'm saying is that SAC could have been made to co-incide with the movies - and I think none of you haven given a single credible point as to why they decided to effectivly split the franchise into 2 universes - the movies and the tv.

*sigh*
Do you understand that you are already promoting an alternate universe spinoff by saying that the TV-series should have been made after the movies? The manga is the original GitS and has very little to do with Oshii's vision - at times the philosophies are almost opposite. Why aren't you screaming blood and murder because Oshii wasn't true to Shirow's vision when he made the movies? Integrity is a good thing to have, in a debate

Do you see my point? It has been done - and done well. Why couldn't they do it the same thing with Ghost in the Shell films and SAC?

Because - and try to repeat this in your mind - every creative work is unique and what works for one work doesn't neccesarily work for another. Also, the people who make these creative pieces of work have free wills and they make decisions based on what they think would work for the best. Kamiyama wanted as much freedom as he could get with the GitS franchise. He didn't want to be chained by the movies, but to do his own interpretation. He made his decision and you can see the results with your own eyes. Personally, I like what I see. If you don't, nothing that I say will help you. The problem is at your end of the court, not mine.

Jeni Nielsen · Post by **Jeni Nielsen** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:49 am

Buckledcranium wrote:the whole arguemnt is rubbish.

your arguemnt in a nutshell - a universe the exists on a cinema screen cannot be the same as that on a tv screen becasue they are different mediums.

1 word

The Animatrix.

Same universe - different syles. Atleast they kept things consistant. And didn't say "Oh yeah by the way - This is a different version of the matrix univers - cus ehhh they wanted to go in a differnet direction"

The one major difference is that the Animatrix has NOTHING to do with any of the characters in the movie. They might as well be spin-offs and different universes since they don't even touch on the plot of the movies. Since Ghost in the Shell in all of its versions deals with the same characters your example is far from apt.

You've all made such a pethetic attempt to justify this.

I'd appreciate it, as a moderator, if you would stop insulting people just because they don't agree with you. It makes you look bad.

SAC could extremly easily have been set before the films, and even continued between the films - minus the major - and adding new charaters. - Why is this such a reciulous idea?

As I've already said, the director made a choice to keep Motoko in the series. She is the major selling point of the series after all (no pun intended).

Wouldn't it have been better to explore the aleady established universe some more? Why not flesh everything out further?

They are trying to flesh things out further. If you could suspend your disbelief you would probably be able to see that the director's intent (of the TV series) is to explore the GitS world. The TV series from what I've seen explores the world of Ghost in the Shell (perhaps from a different timeline perspective but to me it is the same world).

As I've pointed out twice - thats origionally what I thought was happening, this is the first place I was told that SAC was an entity onto itself and had nothing to do with Ghost in the Shell 1 or 2.

I don't agree with that (or whoever told you it). Clearly there has to be some relationship between the movies and the tv show. I think the major thing is that the characters are the same. Not only that but they're being explored. (As a Batou fangirl I like this very much

)

As for your other points I think they've already been addressed. There's no denying that there are inconsistencies, and that perhaps it could have been done differently (though I sort of think its beside the point since what's done is done).

Bringin It Down · Post by **Bringin It Down** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:31 pm

On a much lighter note, I think creating different universes/timelines for certain anime serieses can be great. I really like the way they did it in the Gundam Series. I liked the 08th MS team and all the originals dealing with Zeon, but I'm glad they switched it up and made Gundam Wing, because I think thats the best one of the group, as far as a storyline, plot, animation and mecha are concerned.

Isn't "the Animatrix" two words anyway?

Black Mamba · Post by **Black Mamba** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:30 pm

Tsk, tsk. We've stooped so low as to compare Ghost in the Shell to the Matrix. Shame, shame people.

Isn't "the Animatrix" two words anyway?

Nope. Its just "Animatrix". Guess it sounded cool.

contact · Post by **contact** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:59 pm

How was I supposed to know it was in an alternate reality? Films/TV should speak for itself.

Quite simply, they weren't directed/written by the same person. If SAC had followed in the film's footsteps it would have been bounded by the events of the movie which whos characters, in my opinion, were far too emotionless and dull to be converted into a full-length and entertaining series.

your arguemnt in a nutshell - a universe the exists on a cinema screen cannot be the same as that on a tv screen becasue they are different mediums

Not really, just that if one is based on the other, it restricts the creativity of the writers/directors. Also should the latter work fail, it makes the first look bad, marring the reputation of the creators of the first in the minds of idiots who think similar pieces of work are always related unless a flashing disclaimer tells them otherwise....

Bringin It Down · Post by **Bringin It Down** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:57 pm

Black Mamba wrote:Tsk, tsk. We've stooped so low as to compare Ghost in the Shell to the Matrix. Shame, shame people.

Isn't "the Animatrix" two words anyway?
Nope. Its just "Animatrix". Guess it sounded cool.

I was meaning that he said, "I've got one word for you

THE Animatrix"

I guess I was the only one who founded that slightly funny.

I'll stop now.

cowboyfunk22 · Post by **cowboyfunk22** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:55 pm

My personal feeling on it is that its similar to the James Bond thing. There are different Bonds, the brang back actors to play different characters throughout the movies (Joe Don Baker definately died as a bad guy and was resurrected as a good guy less than a decade later) No body cares because they come to see the character James Bond because its so appealing. No one seems to question it either.

I think anything based on a novel always ends up doing this. For Gits, the manga (at least the first one) is humorous and lighter in tone, but the first and second movie are very dark.

For Masamune Shirow, i figure he appreciates where it was gone. GITS seemed like it was just a side project for him IMO. For huge and well loved universe to be created from this could never upset anyone.

I find that SAC is a tad bit more faithful to the mangas tone. Lesbian lovers, sometimes playful dialogue, and other things just make it stand out moreso than the movies.

I wouldn't have said alternate universe- just a different take on the source material. Until now i thought the show was based before the movies, but i still considered it another take on the GITS universe

james_sb · Post by **james_sb** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:43 pm

In the 12 page booklet in the 1st Gig Box-Set, entitled 'Watch In Awe' it explains:

"Stand Alone Complex is not a sequel to the Ghost In The Shell movie. It is a re-imagining of the same basic story, centring on Section Nine, an elite unit within the Japanese government for policing computer and robot crime. Whereas the movie and the comic largely concerned themselves with crimes committed by the 'Puppet Master', a self-aware computer virus seeking asylum, Stand Alone Complex drops him in favour of a new enemy, and a broader, deeper introduction to the Shirow's future world, and his Nii-hama ['New Port'] city"

In my opinion, to allow the writers create all the stories and background for a series, they were given the building blocks, the characters and the setting and allowed to work with them. This would allow for a lot more freedom, such as ignoring Major departing the physical world in all respects.

Tonks_kittygoth · Post by **Tonks_kittygoth** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:05 am

The mulitple universe thing comes up in comics alot.
You get used to it.

It is a fun way of exploring differnt ways a story could go.

Like someone said, it really isn't something you can change even if you dont like it. Just pick one you like, and ignore the rest.

Like you can read uncanny xmen, and regular xmen, and completely ingnore Amazing Xmen.

Sometimes you end up likeing more than one universe.