The Seburo M5

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douyang
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The Seburo M5

Post by douyang »

I'm wondering about section 9's standard issue handgun, the seburo M5, which we learn has more stopping power than the Mateba. My question is how a gun that fires 5mm bullets can be more powerful than today's 9mm. It's supposed to be high velocity, but what determines a bullet's effectiveness against any animal is how large a wound it makes, and hence its chances of damaging vital organs or blood vessels, although any bullet will kill if it hits something extremely vital, ones that cause large wound channels stand a better chance of doing so. I don't see how a small bullet from a pistol traveling at high velocity can create a wound large enough to stop an organic human reliably, let alone a cyborg. I've been learning about bullet types recently and I've learned that bigger but slower rounds, like the .45 ACP, often do better against human targets than higher velocity 9mm, .38's, and .22's.

The 5.56 mm NATO round used in modern assault rifles is about the same size, but is fired at a velocity high enough to cause the round to fragment and spin sideways inside its target. But I don't see how they could create a pistol that would fire at that high a velocity, so I think the 5mm is suited for a rifle. From what I can tell, the 5.56mm round is still in use in the Gits universe, so why wouldn't they use a larger round for pistols that necessarily have lower velocities?

Overpenetration due to the high velocity is also a factor. Many police units like using calibers that have lower velocities so that they won't overpenetrate, that is, pass through the target and hit something/someone else.

Does anyone here have experience with firearms and ammunition?
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secondhandevil
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Post by secondhandevil »

I used to be sane,I'm better now.
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Jeni Nielsen
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Post by Jeni Nielsen »

I don't have an ounce of experience with firearms, but I just want to point out the possibility that this is an anime and maybe they got something wrong? I don't know how much detail the directors go into, and from what I see around here it IS a great deal, but I think sometimes things in anime don't make as much sense as we want them to. There might just be a reason for this related to plot, maybe like "oh we need our main characters to be able to stop the bad guys, but we want them carrying pistols instead of rifles" type thing.

That said, someone will probably come up with an actual answer for your question that makes more sense than mine does.
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douyang
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Post by douyang »

secondhandevil wrote:Sounds like a SS190. http://www.global-defence.com/2000/pages/herstal.html
I distrust any source that talks about "energy transfer", which is considered by ballistic experts to be a bunch pseudoscience used to sell guns rather than give an accurate measure of performance.
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secondhandevil
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Post by secondhandevil »

Yeah well,I googled ss-190,that was the best I could get. I'm by no means an expert I'm just a guy that got born on a military base and liked what he heard. I'm not even that great a shot. :oops:
I used to be sane,I'm better now.
John_234
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Post by John_234 »

I couldn't resist the massive necropost; guns are my forte.

At any rate, OP should read the notes of the GitS manga. The Darkhorse Comics one, at least has extensive English notes at the end of the manga. Most of his weapons have some kind of FN inspiration. He even has a color picture of Motoko handling a C-26A at the Seburo factory with a little note saying "It's like a FN P90 with a lower magazine!"

5.7x28mm made by FN Herstal uses a bottlenecked case to crank up the velocity on a lightweight, thirty grain bullet (IIRC) with a 5.56mm like round profile. The result is a gun that has a muzzle velocity of over two thousand feet per second at the muzzle, lighter recoil than a 9mm Parabellum and a huge mag cap. It'll penetrate steel plate and kevlar much like a 5.56mm round will.

The .357 Magnum on the other hand is a straight-sided pistol round with a slow burning powder. It kicks a 180 grain bullet at about fifteen hundred feet per second. That makes the likes of 9mm and .45 ACP look like paltry pea shooters. It combines both stopping power and penetration for a round extremely effective even against body armored targets.

The Seburo is better for Section 9 because it's low recoil means better accuracy, more rounds and hard hitting AP rounds make it actually a usable weapon against cyborgs.

Togusa used the Mateba in police service because with JHP rounds would expand when they hit the target and not overpenetrate, as well as give massive knock-down power against soft targets.

The novels additionally explained that Section 9 used soft-head rounds in indoor operations that broke up in walls to prevent overpenetration.
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Freitag
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Post by Freitag »

John_234 wrote:I couldn't resist the massive necropost
No worries mate, if it was a good idea back then (2006), it's worth discussing again when something new comes out - like that other thread about a gun like Togusa has.

Particularly in a technological forum, old ideas are refreshed with new hardware.
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John_234
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Post by John_234 »

Right... Well guns have always been a fun part of GITS anyway, considering all the research Masamune has done on them.
"If I believe I have a ghost, I will." Is this true? That's quite a controversy.
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