SAC 2nd Gig episode 19 - Chain Reaction

[Motoko2030]

What were everyone's thoughts of episode 19 of SAC 2nd Gig?

I found it to be one of the best SAC episodes everything, it had the Proto character back, it continued the refugee story, it had action and Batou getting angry at the Major.

There were a few references to Shirow's Ghost in the Shell manga in the episode.

Does anyone know who does the English dub voice of Proto?

[Tonks_kittygoth]

I liked it.

Glad there was no farting noises!

I wonder what Ghoda has to do with Kuze? It seems like he is using him somehow, but how?

I thought it was cute seeing Batou checking out some new eyes. I guess that answers my question about why he doesnt go for some anrthro looking eyes,
he was waiting for them to be as good as his ranger ones.

Batou getting angry at the Major

Well now she knows what it feels like to screw up from emotions, with a way bad price tag. Maybe if she let more emotion in regularly it would be easier for her to deal when she has no choice. It seems to me that anything you surpress too long ends up coming back to bite you in the ass eventually. Even hard core pro soldiers still have human emotions.
Poor rookie guy. I couldnt see, was it the younger one or the screw-off one with the flat top hair?

[Lightice]

Well now she knows what it feels like to screw up from emotions, with a way bad price tag. Maybe if she let more emotion in regularly it would be easier for her to deal when she has no choice.

I think that's a bit unfair for her. Major isn't emotionally cold, or even as bottled up as in the movie. She simply does her decisions based on skill and experience, rather than what feels right - the latter would get far more of her people dead. You could even say, that she failed this time because she let herself be emotionally affected to the extent by connection to Kuze, that she didn't remember exactly the same thing she was trying to teach to the rookies in training - that percieved information isn't always factual.

I couldnt see, was it the younger one or the screw-off one with the flat top hair?

Yeah, it was Yano. He seems to be destined to die in every continuum he appears in.

[Motoko2030]

She perceived the image of Kuze in the dock, but the transponder was giving her a false image. The mistake that she made makes her seem more human to me, no matter how much of the human body is replaced by prosthetics, you are still human that can make mistakes and not be infallible even with all of the cybernetic implants in your body.

[Tonks_kittygoth]

You could even say, that she failed this time because she let herself be emotionally affected to the extent by connection to Kuze, ...

That is exactly what I said, she screwed up because she couldnt handle the strong emotions from Kuze, because she left that out of her training. As for not being as cold as in the movies, no, but she turns off her emotions regularly in the series,* rather than deal with them, and In my Opinion, this gave her a false confidence that she could always do that. .. so even when she knew she was messed up, (holding her head and saying i dont have time for this....) She plowed on ahead, relying on a skill set she did not have built up to the degree she needed to see clearly. Rather than realize she needed to back off, cancel the op, retreat, give comand over to someone who was clear headed, whatever, she plowed in, expecting she was right as usual.

Hubris,... its an old plotline. The invincible general finds out that they are human... Achelies and his famous heel.

Im guessing too, that she just learned alot, especially since Yano died cause of it, and that is part of the point. To show her with some vunerabilities. In most Lit. if you are too perfect, life tends to bring you down a peg. Personally I think it greatly improves the depth of her character.

Yeah, it was Yano. He seems to be destined to die in every continuum he appears in.

Aww poor guy, a perpetual red shirt.

* trashing the Tachi's, talking to B about abandoning her memories and just moving on in the tunnel, having the Tachi's dad erase his memory...
Theres more, but Ive spent toooo much time posting already, must do work. ..

[Motoko2030]

At least one good thing came out from the ambush on the Section 9 team, they learnt that Kuze is getting a nuclear weapon from the Russians.

[Jigabachi]

Always the russians...

[AlphonseVanWorden]

I agree with Motoko2030:

The mistake that she made makes her seem more human to me, no matter how much of the human body is replaced by prosthetics, you are still human that can make mistakes and not be infallible even with all of the cybernetic implants in your body.

And I think Lightice is correct:

She simply does her decisions based on skill and experience, rather than what feels right - the latter would get far more of her people dead.

And while I think Tonks_kittygoth raises some valid points in terms of character, I have to take issue with something she said:

She plowed on ahead, relying on a skill set she did not have built up to the degree she needed to see clearly. Rather than realize she needed to back off, cancel the op, retreat, give comand over to someone who was clear headed, whatever, she plowed in, expecting she was right as usual.

This is partially valid... but in another way, it seems too simplistic to me.

Kuze told the refugees at the dock not to fight, not to get themselves killed. So while the Major's virtual contact with Kuze influenced her ability to make decisions, the refugees ignored Kuze's suggestion that they not fight...

But Section 9 had no way of knowing that Kuze had told the refugees not to fight. All the Major realized was that she knew Kuze, and she thought she knew the location of the ship...

It wasn't just the Major's decision that resulted in a Section 9 member's death. It was her decision combined with the refugee's decision to ignore Kuze's advice and open fire...

And the refugees were killed, too. A lot of seemingly pointless violence.

But really, doesn't the escalating violence serve someone else's interests, not those of the refugees or of Section 9?

The episode's title is, I suspect, a pun. It refers not only to the weapon that the refugees are attempting to acquire, but to what's happening in the story. Reactions, further reactions... That's a chain reaction. And chain reactions require critical mass...

I suspect the death of that Deputy Minister-- the one Aramaki was planning to meet-- has more to do with the plot than is at first apparent...

And I suspect a lot of this has to do with negotiations between the U.S. and Japan.

We could say that Gouda is playing for larger stakes than Kuze and the Individualists and the refugees, and that Section 9 isn't quite sure what the stakes are-- and they don't see the connections...

I suspect that Gouda is using everyone. Not directly, and not always by infection (as with the Individualists), but through discreet forms of manipulation. Remember the trick he pulled on the soldier in an earlier episode, when he got the soldier to open fire on a refugee by planting an idea in the person's head... Take the initial conditions, give someone information that seems probable, then say, "That person's got a gun..."

And keep doing this, expanding and extending the terms till critical mass is achieved. At a certain point, you won't even need to tell people within a given system what to do or use viruses or suggestion to shape their behavior... It'll simply be action, reaction, action, reaction...

I've mentioned memes in relation to both the Laughing Man and the Individual Eleven. One could extend the discussion to include the refugees (and even Section 9), and argue that the Individualists, the refugees, and the government are being used as vectors to generate anger, resentment, and social disorder between the groups...

...to lead the groups-- and the system that they're all parts of-- to a point of crisis.

Not all types of memetic infection would require transmission of a virus into cyberbrains. That would merely accelerate and guide things.

As the Tachikomas observed, the preconditions for conflict already existed...

Can't a subversive or resistance movement be manipulated to serve the ends of those who desire power within or through or over the State or who seek to influence the State's policies? And can't the same be said of military and police groups?

Let them go at each other... and then your desired course of action will seem-- or become-- inevitable.

As for not being as cold as in the movies, no, but she turns off her emotions regularly in the series,* rather than deal with them, and In my Opinion, this gave her a false confidence that she could always do that. .. so even when she knew she was messed up, (holding her head and saying i dont have time for this....)
...* trashing the Tachi's, talking to B about abandoning her memories and just moving on in the tunnel, having the Tachi's dad erase his memory...

In the first season, didn't the Major think that a Tachikoma's developing individuality might hinder its ability to function as a "tool" of Section 9, to act as part of the whole? And in the second season, doesn't the Tachikoma's "father" want to leave Japan because-- by law and under contract-- he is part of a larger system (the State), and his ideas and his person are, to some extent, property of that system? And didn't the Major observe that the Tachikomas, like the members of Section 9, aren't free?

Can regimentation be used by someone or a group of people to serve ends other than the originally intended ones? Is it a coincidence that the terrorists infected with the Individual Eleven virus were all ex-military?

What did Kuze do in the past that makes him different from the other ex-military personnel who were Individualists? But didn't the refugees in this episode seem as suicidal-- as willing to die for the cause-- as the refugee suicide bombers, and as the Individual Eleven?

The two sides-- the refugees and the Individualists-- enter into a kind of dance, the dance-craze becomes part of the public consciousness, the government tries to respond, things accelerate...

And can these behaviors be used to serve the overall purposes of someone like Gouda (and whoever he's working for or with)?

If you're a good enough memetic engineer, you don't have to directly control things... just nudge them along periodically.

I think the most important bits of subtextual information so far were provided in the virtual interaction of Gouda and the Major, in the Tachikomas' discussion of Dawkins and Lovelock, and in Kuze's backstory...

I look forward to seeing how the series' creators develop these things.

[douyang]

That is exactly what I said, she screwed up because she couldnt handle the strong emotions from Kuze, because she left that out of her training. As for not being as cold as in the movies, no, but she turns off her emotions regularly in the series,* rather than deal with them, and In my Opinion, this gave her a false confidence that she could always do that. .. so even when she knew she was messed up, (holding her head and saying i dont have time for this....) She plowed on ahead, relying on a skill set she did not have built up to the degree she needed to see clearly. Rather than realize she needed to back off, cancel the op, retreat, give comand over to someone who was clear headed, whatever, she plowed in, expecting she was right as usual.

Hubris,... its an old plotline. The invincible general finds out that they are human... Achelies and his famous heel.

Im guessing too, that she just learned alot, especially since Yano died cause of it, and that is part of the point. To show her with some vunerabilities. In most Lit. if you are too perfect, life tends to bring you down a peg. Personally I think it greatly improves the depth of her character.

I don't see how it had anything to do with her emotions. She just took a chance with the limited information she had and it didn't work. She saw the ship's number and used that to guess at its location, not sure if the ship they wanted was among the copies at the dock.

I think you have a point about her being emotionally repressed at times though. I always wondered why she would want to permanently erase all her memories of her parents of and of life before her first prosthetic body, given that she insists on always having a female model to preserve her identity.

[Lightice]

* trashing the Tachi's, talking to B about abandoning her memories and just moving on in the tunnel, having the Tachi's dad erase his memory...

To be precise, the Tachis' creator just told where the extra memory he planted was stored. I can't imagine that he'd under any circumstances be allowed to touch the Tachis' brains, ever again - just to give advice, in the case something happens to them.
Also, erasing parts of their memories seems quite a routine in the Section 9 and they don't really seem to mind, most of the time. In the same episode it is mentioned, that the memories they gather from their illegal accesses to police database will be deleted later or and also the memories from their structural analysis were removed.
The reason for this is, as one of the Inspectors told is, that it's impossible to keep their curiosity restrained. Gathering information seems to be the greatest passion the Tachikoma have and they are capable of breaking rules and disobeying orders to do it. In other words, they're rather like disobidient children, at times, hands in the proverbial cookie-jar. Presumably the memory-wipe is the only way Section 9 has so far invented, to keep them under check.

And Alphonse has many points, as usual. What is happening is no longer in Section 9's power to restrain and even Kuze doesn't have as much control as he'd like to think. Moreover, though, not even Gouda himself knows all the variables of the phenomenon he's taken control over and it is possible that the memetic engineering is working in both ways without his consious knowledge...

[Tonks_kittygoth]

Kuze told the refugees at the dock not to fight, not to get themselves killed.

Yeh, there was no reason for section 9 to know that. They were going in to bust an illegal weapons deal (dont have show, cant review) So they expected a fire fight so the Major knew she was leading people into a very dangerous situation, and should have known that she was not able to call the shots, literally, as she was messed up. Anyways, the question isnt if the Major screwed up, because she says she did when she realized the info was wrong after Batou confronts her.

Again, In my Opinion, she could have also avoided deaths on both sides if she had backed off or set someone else in charge. I think that is what she is saying at the end by her tone of voice when she admits to B that she screwed up.

I don't see how it had anything to do with her emotions.

Cause right before the fight, she is about to touch Kuze's mind or whatever it is, and he warns her she will die from misery. When she wakes up or comes out of her trance she seems to be fighting some sort of painful thoughts, and Ishkawa is concerned for her. She yells at him to go away and then starts the mission. She is overcome by Kuze's sadness~missery which clouds her mind.

I think you have a point about her being emotionally repressed at times though.

Thank you.

n the first season, didn't the Major think that a Tachikoma's developing individuality might hinder its ability to function as a "tool" of Section 9, to act as part of the whole? And in the second season, doesn't the Tachikoma's "father" want to leave Japan because-- by law and under contract-- he is part of a larger system (the State), and his ideas and his person are, to some extent, property of that system? And didn't the Major observe that the Tachikomas, like the members of Section 9, aren't free?

Not sure what you are saying here, if you are saying that she wasnt surpressing emotional reactions, using possible sentients as tool's fits into an unemotional reaction to me. Plus again I say it was a flawed decision because had they not somehow escaped getting thier memorys wiped Batou, and maybe her would be dead. Plus they could have possibley helped in other ways, had she not been to guarded to understand the potential in having personality and emotion. And the bit about the Tachi's dad not being free like section 9 would make most people empathetic, perhaps finding a way that the bond with the Tachi's may make him more loyal. *(when dealing with people, saying NO without reason, or just reasons like, the state says NO, dont work. you have to have reasons for the person to submit, or they will constantly rebel. )*The Tachi dad guy will most likely find another way out soon, but had she or his "handlers" reacted with some empathy and worked with him to give him a reason to stay he may, such as giving him a role in working with the Tachi's.

She simply does her decisions based on skill and experience, rather than what feels right - the latter would get far more of her people dead.

Well, duh, of course. I never sugested that she should blindly follow her emotions, anymore than she should try to sublimate them to the level she sometimes does. I just believe that to function in complex human interactions with potentially deadly outcomes it is very very unwise to discount the power of the unavoidable fact that you are Human. (or have a ghost)

To be precise, the Tachis' creator just told where the extra memory he planted was stored. I can't imagine that he'd under any circumstances be allowed to touch the Tachis' brains, ever again

Yeh, that makes sense. I bet he told them the wrong place anyways...

And Ghoda is behind everything is something I wholeheartedly agree with, and or his "emporor" sort of handler if he has one... Kinda looks like Darth w/out helmet too....

AAAAaa bad me, must sign off, work...

[AlphonseVanWorden]

Not sure what you are saying here, if you are saying that she wasnt surpressing emotional reactions, using possible sentients as tool's fits into an unemotional reaction to me. Plus again I say it was a flawed decision because had they not somehow escaped getting thier memorys wiped Batou, and maybe her would be dead. Plus they could have possibley helped in other ways, had she not been to guarded to understand the potential in having personality and emotion. And the bit about the Tachi's dad not being free like section 9 would make most people empathetic, perhaps finding a way that the bond with the Tachi's may make him more loyal. *(when dealing with people, saying NO without reason, or just reasons like, the state says NO, dont work. you have to have reasons for the person to submit, or they will constantly rebel. )*The Tachi dad guy will most likely find another way out soon, but had she or his "handlers" reacted with some empathy and worked with him to give him a reason to stay he may, such as giving him a role in working with the Tachi's.

Tonks_kittygoth, I intended the line of questioning to suggest that Section Nine members, the Tachikomas, and the Tachikomas' "father" are all agents of-- indeed, instruments of-- the State. I think the Major's comment was simply an ironic way of noting that serving the State, being bound to it by contract or other obligation, pretty much stinks at times.

[EDIT: I was implying something else, too. I think someone could make the case that Section Nine allows for the Tachikomas' feelings of loyalty (towards Batou, for example) and their individuality in 2nd Gig because these things are assets to Section Nine, as we saw in the first season-- and anything that's an asset to Section Nine is something of use to the State. I'm not sure it's exactly or purely a sentimental thing; it's about use and value.

But anything that's a liability to the State is, well, unacceptable to the State. So some content gets edited.

Notice what I've said directly: That the individual identity and feelings of a Tachikoma, whatever the basis or origins, are only permitted to the extent that these things serve the ends of Section Nine, and by extension the ends of the State. EDIT ENDS]

And I think the Tachikomas' creator was as concerned about intellectual property rights and relatively naive notions of pure research and sharing information with the scientific community as he was with other things. (When you sign a contract and work for a given State, you gain some things, and lose others-- rights to your own research and some degree of freedom being among the things you lose.) He wanted to leave Japan for a country that would acknowledge individual achievement, for a nation where his ideas would become part of a broader knowledge-base. But the Japanese government wasn't about to let that happen. Even if the government had allowed him to work on or with the Tachikomas, he would've been under state contract-- and what he did would be classified. So I doubt that such an arrangement would've resolved the situation to his and his employers' satisfaction.

It's pretty telling that the Tachikoma is holding the man's hand, and the man has to mention that his research will spread via the Net someday...

To paraphrase the conversation:

"I don't want to forget you, Daddy. I don't want the State to erase my memories of you."

"Don't worry, son/daughter. My work will be widely available online someday. Soon everyone will appreciate the value of my research..."

Ah, family values. Kinda chokes you up.

I imagine that the relationship/conflict between working for a government (as the military unit with which Kuze served did, and as Section Nine and the Tachikomas do) and making autonomous decisions will come up again in the series...

In short, I was suggesting we look at the broader questions the episode with the Tachikomas and their "dad" implied, and the parallels and shared thematic concerns that that particular episode has with the rest of the series.

It's not quite so off-topic as it might at first seem...

when dealing with people, saying NO without reason, or just reasons like, the state says NO, dont work. you have to have reasons for the person to submit, or they will constantly rebel.

I'd propose there's a difference between someone who simply doesn't like being told what to do and someone who enters a contract or other legally binding arrangement with a corporation or state, benefits from the arrangement, but decides to break the conditions of the contract or agreement-- thus putting state or corporate secrets at risk.

(I'm not talking about whistle-blowers, and let's note that the scientist in the show wasn't going to blow the whistle on anyone. And we're not talking about a simple labor dispute, or someone deciding to quit a job that wouldn't impact national security. The man wanted to defect or seek political asylum-- and given the relationship between Japan and the rest of the world in the show, such a defection would put Japanese state secrets at risk and potentially shift the balance of power. And we're told that the man's research belonged to the State, under conditions and contracts to which the man agreed. So it's not a matter of saying, "Be free, little bird. Fly! Fly!" You sign the documents or join the organization, you take the State's or the company's money, and you know what the consequences will be if you break the terms. It's on the document you signed, or it's apparent from the agreement's nature. And the same is true of Section Nine's members. The Tachikomas are in a slightly different situation, in that they didn't choose to join up with the State... but they don't have legal rights in the same sense that the scientist and Section Nine members do. Again, the similarity is simply that they're not free in the same way a normal citizen is free. Batou, the Major, and the Tachikoma's dad all made the choice... But if a Tachikoma decided to leave, it wouldn't be imprisoned or otherwise punished as someone who broke a contract, it would be "switched off" like a machine-- because that's its legal status. And that wouldn't be the same as execution... as "execution" would imply that a Tachikoma's legal status was the same as a human's. But the Major's comment seemed to acknowledge that she views the Tachikomas as something like a human being... I think her attitude towards them has changed since first season. But still, she has to make sure that certain of their memories are purged-- for reasons that have been discussed on this forum. Duty, necessity, etc. Sometimes, as an operative of the State, you have to do stuff you don't like doing-- things viewers might not approve of.)

The writers must've loved working on that episode with the Tachikoma's dad. It had several levels of irony-- some of them at the dad's expense, some at the expense of Section Nine.

Again, In my Opinion, she could have also avoided deaths on both sides if she had backed off or set someone else in charge. I think that is what she is saying at the end by her tone of voice when she admits to B that she screwed up.

I don't think it would've matter who was leading the operation. The refugees would've opened fire anyway. As I've suggested, things are getting out of hand in the show. You have a tense situation, weapons floating around, and the potential for further escalation. And if Kuze or the weapons had been on one of the boats, waiting might've been disastrous.

You could counter that the intel was wrong, and the boats were of no actual value. And you'd be correct-- but knowing that at the time would be impossible. So the Major made a command decision. It was the wrong one, and she lost someone under her command. As the unit's leader, she has to take responsibility for the consequences of her decision. So when Batou tells her she made a bad call and someone died, all she can say is, "You're right."

(BTW, just a polite suggestion: If you're responding to more than one person's comments in a single post, you might want to mention who you're quoting when you quote someone. At least, you might want to do so on this sort of thread. Something more general, say a thread in which five people mention bands you like, I think it's cool to quote someone's post, say, "I like (or don't like) this band," then move on to someone else's post, quote it, and respond-- without attribution. But when this is done in a more detailed discussion, things can get kind of weird for the reader. I saw my words, douyang's words, and Lightice's words quoted without attribution, and I was initially confused about your responses. I found myself wondering, "Did I write these words?" I was pretty sure that I hadn't. Then I scrolled up and realized that douyang or Lightice was the author of the quoted passage, that you were now responding to that person. But I later found myself being quoted again... As I've said, this is just a friendly suggestion. As this kind of thread gets longer and longer, it's beneficial to all parties for a poster to mention which person's comments the poster is responding to-- if the poster is responding to more than one person at a time.)

[AlphonseVanWorden]

And Ghoda is behind everything is something I wholeheartedly agree with, and or his "emporor" sort of handler if he has one... Kinda looks like Darth w/out helmet too....

Tonks_kittygoth, I have to disagree with you. I think if you put Gouda in a tophat and made him wear a monocle, he'd look like Mr. Peanut-- the Planters Peanut mascot. His head has the right shape to it...

[Lightice]

Yeh, there was no reason for section 9 to know that. They were going in to bust an illegal weapons deal (dont have show, cant review) So they expected a fire fight so the Major knew she was leading people into a very dangerous situation, and should have known that she was not able to call the shots, literally, as she was messed up. Anyways, the question isnt if the Major screwed up, because she says she did when she realized the info was wrong after Batou confronts her.

Major did screw up, but only in assuming that Kuze would be in the obvious place. Yano's death didn't happen because of that. The rookies still weren't skilled enough to be put in real combat and Major did everything she could for their wellbeing, by putting them in the safest place with an experienced soldier to watch their backs. Unfortunately that wasn't enough. Batou's anger and Major's regret are due that they failed to get their objective, yet still lost a member.

Again, In my Opinion, she could have also avoided deaths on both sides if she had backed off or set someone else in charge. I think that is what she is saying at the end by her tone of voice when she admits to B that she screwed up.

I don't see how she could have avoided anything that took place in the harbor, except by not going there in the first place. She was the only one who had the firsthand information from Kuze's vision-field and she was stunned by the killzone behind his Ghostline, so doing an alternate decision in haste would have been next to impossible. That wasn't a mistake that could have been easily avoided and had nothing to do with her emotional ties.

Cause right before the fight, she is about to touch Kuze's mind or whatever it is, and he warns her she will die from misery. When she wakes up or comes out of her trance she seems to be fighting some sort of painful thoughts, and Ishkawa is concerned for her. She yells at him to go away and then starts the mission. She is overcome by Kuze's sadness~missery which clouds her mind.

Actually she was almost killed by Kuze's unnatural adrenaline-levels while at the same time overcome by his vast ambition. Once again I wonder just what the dubbers have been doing. "Dying from misery"? There most certainly wasn't anything like that in the Japanese script...

Not sure what you are saying here, if you are saying that she wasnt surpressing emotional reactions, using possible sentients as tool's fits into an unemotional reaction to me.

The army does that with people all the time and that's where her skill and experience are from.

Plus again I say it was a flawed decision because had they not somehow escaped getting thier memorys wiped Batou, and maybe her would be dead.

That's rather unfair assesement. There is no way she could have predicted that incident beforehand.

Plus they could have possibley helped in other ways, had she not been to guarded to understand the potential in having personality and emotion.

They are properties that usually aren't expected from machines of war. What if one suddenly refused to fight because life is infinately precious, or even turn on it's comrades due to sympathy towards the enemy? Such scenarios must be eliminated before you can safely have units like Tachikomas in the field.

And the bit about the Tachi's dad not being free like section 9 would make most people empathetic, perhaps finding a way that the bond with the Tachi's may make him more loyal. *(when dealing with people, saying NO without reason, or just reasons like, the state says NO, dont work. you have to have reasons for the person to submit, or they will constantly rebel. )*The Tachi dad guy will most likely find another way out soon, but had she or his "handlers" reacted with some empathy and worked with him to give him a reason to stay he may, such as giving him a role in working with the Tachi's.

An emotional attachment is generally an unwanted property in military matters. I should note that the Dr. Asuda was fully aware when he signed the contract that he wouldn't have rights to his work. He took the shortcut to get funding, tools and assistance for his work. That was his decision and what he tried to was to break the contract he had made, fully aware of it's implications. Now he has proven himself unreliable and if Tachikomas felt attachment to him, they too would be subjects of suspicion. It could easily get them back to the labs, I might add.

Yeh, that makes sense. I bet he told them the wrong place anyways...

That should be easy to check: delete their memories of the past day and then show them Asuda's photograph and ask if they remember him. I find it unlikely that he would have lied. Though he without doubt kept his promise of leaving his ideals to the Net for anyone to find.

[AlphonseVanWorden]

I think someone should edit the Tachikomas' deaths from first season to Prince's "I Would Die 4 U." Just a thought.

Sorry, back to topic...