in the shell

I officially declare the technology forum... open!

Well they stay you should always start wit hthe small things...

I thought I'd start with a topic I find fascinating, that's touched on it 2 of my favourite future sci-fi cyberpunk stories, GiTS and Deus Ex, as they both approach the problem of the future in an information age, with the advance of technology.

Nanotechnology, the technology of stuff on a mind-blowingly small scale, is something that is not addressed directly for the most part in GiTS, but is often mentioned in connection with prosthetics and cyberbrain technology. There is of course also that old chestnut, the Japanese Miracle too.

In Deus Ex it forms the foundation of the storyline. In the DeE universe mankind has surpassed prosthetics (which leave users with a maimed and disfigured half-human/half-machine look) and developed bio-augmentation by way of using nanotechnology. The main protagonists of the story, the Dentons, are nano-augmented human beings, they look relatively normal, except for a few suspicious extra blue veins, but they hold within them the powers of a superhuman. The sinister side of all this, however, is shown at the beginning of Deus Ex 2: Invisible War, when a whole city is all but wiped out by a nanite bomb, a self-replicating terrorist device that disintegrates everything in it's path.

These are two contrasting views on the same idea. What are your views on nanotechnology? Do you see it changing humankind for the better, or are you afraid of the grey goo?

Wasn't there a "Jason" movie where he got nano-teched. The concept of nanotechnology doesn't scare me. The miss use of it does. Like everything it would be based on who could afford it. Not who needed it.

Question 1: Do you think nanites will be metal machines ( Little Robots ) Or some type of Bio-Organism.

Qusetion 2: How do you deal with the bodies habit of rejecting things.

Question 3: Would nanites just repair or would they alter the body and its functions. Cause if it can fix so I don't have to do sit-ups and crushes. I want them

The concept of nanotechnology doesn't scare me. The miss use of it does. Like everything it would be based on who could afford it. Not who needed it.

Like anything, that's the way it starts out. As technology grows it becomes more readily available. No one but the very wealthy could afford mainframe computers in the 1960s and 70s. That all changed with the personal computer revolution in the late 70s and 80s. Few could afford to access the Internet in the 80s, look at it now.

Question 1: Do you think nanites will be metal machines ( Little Robots ) Or some type of Bio-Organism.

A bit of both, I suspect. Molecular level mechanics are very advanced already, but the fusion of organic and mechanical is the obvious choice. Primitive nano-machines are likely to be largely mechanical, but over time I think they will become more biologically constructed.

Question 2: How do you deal with the bodies habit of rejecting things.

The body can only tell something is foreign if reacts or 'tastes' like it is foreign when it interacts with anti-bodies and bodily cells. Techniques like coating the nano-machines in particular substances (exactly what is getting beyond my biological knowledge) can throw the body a curve-ball. You could even engineer the way a nano-cocktail worked by coating it, sending it in to do a job, then at a defined moment it sheds it's coat and is passed out of the body naturally. I know it is possible to use substances to 'disguise' foreign cells already, so it's only one leap further down the line.

Question 3: Would nanites just repair or would they alter the body and its functions. Cause if it can fix so I don't have to do sit-ups and crushes. I want them

Initial uses would likely be for medicinal purposes. This would be mostly reparatory or destructive work (wound repair, cancer removal, internal hemorrhage reduction etc.). As the technology develops it is likely to be exploited for ever more 'everyday' purposes. Just as cosmetic surgery has developed from reconstructive and medical techniques, so cosmetic, physiological and possibly even recreational use will arise.

I kind of have a vision, as you can tell, for where this technology is headed. I am only putting my opinions into this context, so don't take my answers as read.

Saito wrote: I kind of have a vision, as you can tell, for where this technology is headed. I am only putting my opinions into this context, so don't take my answers as read.

I am aware of that, I just have a very wierd sense of humor. That coupled with an "I am the center of the universe" complex So I tend to respond to things in a very narrow / self centered way

That was more by the way of an obligatory 'just my 2 cents worth' disclaimer kinda thing, in case anyone decided I was wrong

I don't think you are self-centered, just answering from your point of view

Misuse is a major issue for nanotech, especially when you get into the realms of intelligent, self replicating mechanisms. This is where the old grey goo problem rears it's ugly head, as well as the potential to cause massive amounts of damage.

Some interesting reading
http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.ht ... t0449.html
As it seems GITS is becoming reality

Wouldn't it be wierd of nanobots, began replicating and mimcking human cells, so that eventually they could destroy and replace one cell at a time until, the host is now fully replicant?? That would make a good scfi-fi tale.

Sounds similar to the way the Borg work in Star Trek. The principle with them was they injected victims with a Nanorobotic serum that took over the entire body and provided a conduit for the cyborg implants that they fitted.

Well, they certainly used micromachines (as they're called in SAC) to get rid of CO2, as it was mentioned on the original infamous Laughing Man newscast. They seem to be non-sentient workhorses to me.

I think it'd be hard to make a nano-robotic organism sentient. Let's be honest, nature hasn't managed to do it to any great effect yet, so we ain't got a hope.

That's another one I'd forgotten about though, thanks Individual Twelve. Atmospheric controls. I guess this goes along with the similar idea to the Japanese Miracle idea, which was used to control radiation and fallout from a nuclear warhead strike.

well I guess it could maybe be feasible to acheive some degree of sentience with a form of swarm AI, but the size of the swarm needed would be ridiculously large and there wouldn't really be that much point in doing it in the first place.(other than the fact that it'd be kinda cool)

What do you guys think/what-have-you-heard about potential long term power sources for nano-robotics? Nanoscale powersources are going to be very critical to the potential of nanomachines. The best(most fun) I've heard so far is using zinc oxide nanowires to generate electricity using the piezoelectric effect taking power from physical movement, there's a guy who made a nano-material that converts biothermal heat to power medical devices which could be repurposed for medical nanomachines and there's a group of people looking at steam power for nanomachines which is frankly awesome. ..even if i'm not entirely sure how it works

I can't wait for nanotech to have mainstream applications, it's going to change the world every bit as much as the industrial revolution.
(Elmo, making vast unsubstantiated predictions est ~ 1985)

I've seen extracts from a a paper on the use of ATP (Adenosine triphosphate) generated in the body of an organism to power tiny machines that utilize the energy in ATP to function. That's certainly another possibility.

The nano-wires thing sounds interesting, particularly for non-internal nanotechnology.

Saito wrote:I've seen extracts from a a paper on the use of ATP (Adenosine triphosphate) generated in the body of an organism to power tiny machines that utilize the energy in ATP to function. That's certainly another possibility.

That seems possibly dangerous to me. It's basically that the nanomachines are running off of the body's own power. What if something went wrong?

Saito wrote:That's another one I'd forgotten about though, thanks Individual Twelve. Atmospheric controls. I guess this goes along with the similar idea to the Japanese Miracle idea, which was used to control radiation and fallout from a nuclear warhead strike.

*salute* No problem.

I guess it would be easy to construct a minature robot whose only orders are to consume certain particles.

I've seen extracts from a a paper on the use of ATP (Adenosine triphosphate) generated in the body of an organism to power tiny machines that utilize the energy in ATP to function. That's certainly another possibility.

Hmm, sounds plausible... as in, a bio-mechanism?

Jeni Nielsen wrote:That seems possibly dangerous to me. It's basically that the nanomachines are running off of the body's own power. What if something went wrong?

I'd assume that the nanomachines just shut down.

The possibility of a runaway system using ATP is potentially risky, but with only a small micro-machine dose of non-replicating units it would likely have a negligible effect.

This is one of those things I'd love to discuss with Shirow. He obviously has some clear ideas regarding the ability to use cybernetic augmentation in conjunction with the body's cardiovascular system, micro machines are used in augmented human bodies like that of Saito and Togusa to provide power to the implants. Batau comments in SSS that this strains the heart so I wouldn't be surprised if the conceptual system used a similar idea to the ATP powered micro machines.

One idea we must detach ourselves at least in part from is the idea of a 'runaway' micro machine population, also referred to as 'grey goo'. This would only occur if a truly self-replicating, self-powered micro machine were to run out of control. It is a one of those dystopian visions commonly attached to nanotech that is really just that, scare mongering by those who doubt science.

Similarly in the case of the ATP bugs in the body, it is much more likely that the micro machines used would be a simple dose of programmed machines designed to target and repair or destroy a particular injury or infection. It is unlikely that a self-replicating machine would be used as it has the potential to overcome the human body.