in the shell Forum Index in the shell
Discussions about the many incarnations of Ghost in the Shell, philosophy and more!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Empty
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    in the shell Forum Index -> The Philosophy
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
marto_motoko



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 536
Location: Ni'ihama

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:24 pm    Post subject: Empty Reply with quote

Empty.

A legitimate feeling for anyone to subdue themselves in melancholy, and anxiety of 'where did the real them go to' thoughts that can eventually drown a person in depression. Emptiness is perhaps the most relative to loneliness. A sence of hollowness. Did Motoko Kusanagi feel this was. She was engulfed into her body. Perhaps while her spiritual quest for discovery of her ghost was swayed in the roads of logic, and scientific explanation, she also began concideration of her body, and the strange distance it made within her from her own self. Even though her emotions and sensations simulated within her, felt as if though her own, her awareness of the fact that they were indeed nothing but mere simulations is what makes the 'emptiness' even more inflated in her mind. And even the mind, the ghost and sense of self she clung onto, were now beginning to be nothing but mere doubts. Confusion, loss of self-belief, doubts of one's reasons for existing - could any of this have lead to a type of depression? Even though solid and rather rigid among her comrades at work, could Kusanagi possibly have been suffering from something caused by her questioning?


All opinions welcome, and most anxiously awaited.

M.M.
_________________

Who are you? Who slips into my robot body and whispers to my ghost?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Gillsing



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 109
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion is that it was in her nature to have scientific doubts about her own nature. I never saw it as a kind of depression, although it was probably a bit of a downer to not be able to seriously discuss those doubts with Batou or the others. I assume that it's the Motoko in the first movie you're thinking about (as usual)? I still haven't seen Innocence.
_________________
Recommended cyberpunk:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
marto_motoko



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 536
Location: Ni'ihama

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gillsing wrote:
My opinion is that it was in her nature to have scientific doubts about her own nature. I never saw it as a kind of depression, although it was probably a bit of a downer to not be able to seriously discuss those doubts with Batou or the others. I assume that it's the Motoko in the first movie you're thinking about (as usual)? I still haven't seen Innocence.



Two things for me to say before I actually reply:
1. See innocence
2. Of course movie Kusanagi! Very Happy I'm obsessive beyond recovery!

As to my reply:


I don't think that the doubts were generally the effect of depression, but I'm wondering, in her state was it possible that the doubts were the roots of depression? If not that, then what about a type of distancing, or even autism-like perception of surroundings due to the depth and intencity of her curiosity about herself. Could the doubts be the door to all those things?
_________________

Who are you? Who slips into my robot body and whispers to my ghost?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
sonic
Special


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 274

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Movie Motoko was best :)

I always thought she was just 'bored'. The pinnacle of boredom though. 'Empty' sounds too drastic, like she couldn't feel anything when it seems she at least demonstrates she could feel a few things (curiousity, yearning, determination). The Motoko in the film has gone as far as anybody could go; the cyberbrain is the epitome of human evolution up to that point and she is one of the most highly advanced cyborgs... Where do you go from there? Where do you go from there if you're somebody who longs to keep pushing the boundaries of their existence? Her ennui- it's being stuck in a rut, like going on a personal philosophical quest and finally reaching THE answer (or getting close enough that it's a good as finding the answer), only to realise that you've got nowhere to go beyond that, and that that topic, which you poured so much of yourself into, no longer has anything to offer you. It's a metaphor for the way we live our lives now, in the modern world. Or at least, the point we may feel we are rapidly approaching. There are echoes of this throughout many things in life; everything from important stuff like love to more trivial things like collecting toys. I really loved the English dub of the 1st movie (yes I know everyone tends to hate it) because I thought she captured that phase of life that Motoko was in well (and to be honest it doesn't sound that far off what the Japanese voice actress was trying to do with her either). Motoko is left only with her thoughts to keep herself occupied playing games of philosophy and logic with them. Then the Puppetmaster thing happens as she's on the cusp of total boredom with her life, the world, and the limits of what she is; and it proves to be the event to break her out of it and thus take the whole of humanity to the next leap forward in being...

I like the film's Motoko because I think that a lot of us can relate to her. I think they intended her to be that way on purpose... She's a future everyman ahead of her time- you and me, male or female, whatever colour or race- it does not matter in the film. She could be a strapping great big fellow called Sampson, and it'd still be the same essential persona with the same issues to work through in the film. I liked the character design that they went with in the end though... Looks strangely like an old English teacher of mine (okay, I admit; how closely my English teacher resembled her in the face and eyes used to truly spook me sometimes in class).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Spica



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 132
Location: The Sleeping Universe

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Syphi. Motoko's state of mind is less akin to depression (which is usually caused by an imbalence in neurotransmitters) but more like the existential concept of ennui (an apathetic listlessness caused by the feeling that existance is pointless (The existentialists believed that there was no "meaning of life", in other words that it had no point)), which is more akin to an emotion dictated by external circumstances. Motoko has reached a state at which she is static, this has made existance seem pointless and invoked ennui. By joining with the puppetmaster she was able to move on to greater things, she changed in order to survive (on of the major themes of both the Movie and manga versions of GITS).
_________________
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
-Hamlet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
marto_motoko



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 536
Location: Ni'ihama

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sylphisonic wrote:
She could be a strapping great big fellow called Sampson, and it'd still be the same essential persona with the same issues to work through in the film.



Laughing A round of applause for the best commentary of the day.


Boredom... I guess that does indeed fit into her appearance of outlook on life. But I guess what I want, is for us to dwelve even deeper than what it 'appears' to be. Look at the upper left corner of the screen. You can't look at her staring blankly into that room, and tell me that there's nothing more than mere boredum past that.
_________________

Who are you? Who slips into my robot body and whispers to my ghost?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
sonic
Special


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 274

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I can. It's just a more complex boredom than "I'm bored and it's raining, so I'll stay in and do a jigsaw puzzle." What I don't think is that she's some poor emotionally-needing soul who's struggling to find her feelings while fighting an emptiness that we mere mortals can't even begin to know, or anything as melodramatic as that. Or perhaps you'd like to see it that way because it gives you something to romanticise about Wink ... that poor vulnerable girl, how hard it is on her, I want to protect her, etcetera... Wink wink Wink wink

I'm teasing! I'm only teasing! Twisted Evil

See, I can play the mercilessly teasing 'older sister' lol...


Last edited by sonic on Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sonic
Special


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 274

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides, there is nothing "not deep" about that level of ennui. As somebody who is never lacking in interesting things to think or do, to arrive at that point would be very surreal, restless and perplexing. When you've lost your purpose in any given thing, you feel very heavy (like your soul is weighty or something, like there's leaden static in the air) while you're searching for your next one (that is, purpose or thing to have purpose in); especially as the realisation that you are actually searching tends to be very gradual until you realise it, and in the meantime you feel a bit directionless (not the best word, but good enough). That Motoko's eyes in the picture have that look about them, met with a hint of "is this... perhaps?" as something she's looking at in both her reflection and the guy/puppetmaster/whoever she's urrently watching this time clicks with the problem her brain is working on.

Having a highly logical mind is great, the thing is that you don't always realise that the logic is carrying you somewhere, you get so wrapped up in using it as a tool inside and outside.

uhh... didn't mean to speak in second person- when I say 'you' I don't mean anyone in particular... maybe me, since that was where it was coming from...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GhostLine



Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 633
Location: "the net is vast and infinite..."

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberization and the mapping of the human-ghost results in the ideology that all the answers are within reach. however, more answers only lead to more and much deeper questions. motoko's life is an example of one who has fully been assimililated into technology and materialism charged with the hopes of some semblance of man saving himself. obviously she--as well as the rest of society--has been left wanting. sexaroids, prosthesis, materialism, internet-addiction. i think this is a case of ennui caused by disillusionment and perhaps depression. some of the great thinkers, artists, philosphers were horribly depressed--a cursed blessing because they were never satisfied with surface answers--they dug deeper to satiate the need within themelves for truth.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
the_shadow



Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 6
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:00 pm    Post subject: Excuse me... Reply with quote

If I may interrupt for just a brief span of time, I can guarantee this will not take long, but I just wish to clarify something. Even the greatest minds have been terribly depressed, true, but is it not also true to say that they may have also feared the need for truth, thereby creating an endless cycle of doubt of which eventually consumes their very being? I ask this since I am just wishing to clarify whether a MegaTech human-ghost such as I am capable of breaking this routine. I know for a fact that the answers within oneself is not always the answers you seek. Where else can you suggest that I can find the answers to the questions I seek? I have tried rifling through the net, but it just gave me a slight head and neckache.
_________________
~The Shadow~
~Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you.~
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
sord



Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 10
Location: U.S. MO

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As per Motoko in the first movie, the reason she was in the mood she was is said in two parts.

1. on the boat with Batou after having been diving. Basically she want to get out and do something, or be something, grand, but she's limited by her current identity that makes up her existence.

2. on the elevator with Batou shortly after discussing the appearance of a ghost in the puppet master body (though they don't know it's the puppetmaster yet.) She goes on to say that by fully cyborizing her body (except the brain which is just encased and given extra memory) that with such grand technology, even her brain might be a computerized simulation, which would make her life and her thoughts, not originally of her own and thus she has no identity, and might as well not exist.

Some other things I want to add to that.

1. in season one of SAC, during the last 3 or so episodes we learn that the reason Motoko keeps her watch is to have a physical object to prove that she exists and has exists, as well as a reason to keep one real arm, the one the watch is on (in the last episode the kid-laughingman states that she still hasn't switched to a completly prosthetic body, which when applied to Batou's reasoning of why Motoko has always had the same body and watch that's shown in the 3rd to last episode when they run from section 9 HQ.)

2. In the 2 to last episode we also learn Batou buys weight training equipment for the same reason Motoko keeps he watch.

3. in Innocence during the conversations (or speeches rather, geez the guy loves talking) with Kim the idea that only animals, and those with neither no concience or infinite conciousnce have sublime happyness. In trying to obtain this through science, we have learned that the body can be broken down to simple fundamental levels, like clockwork. This means of course, we could theoretically be progammed as well except by chemicals instead of digits, cogs, or porcelin.

Judging from that fact that ALL THREE point to worrying about if we really have a true identity, means there is a highly likely chance that this is the main issue depressing Motoko, since they all have recurring themes on other things as well.

This is especially so if we notice that during the series, Motoko isn't fully cyborized yet and has her watch, but later in the movie and the main comic she becomes fully cyborized, and no longer has a watch and tends to have a more serious, darker demeaner, and more concern about what makes her her, her identity. But by joining with the puppet master she enters a world where she quite literally has infinite conciousness, or at least a near god like one. Hence the reason for the angel in the movie, it also jives with the puppetmasters speech.

Now I know that the series was made after the comic and the movie, but that doesn't mean Shirow didn't guide the series and movies so it would lead to them, which is what I think he did, or most likely did. Since Shirow actually did the most basic outline for the series, and Oshii matched his two movies up, it wouldn't be that hard to do.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Spica



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 132
Location: The Sleeping Universe

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Excuse me... Reply with quote

the_shadow wrote:
I ask this since I am just wishing to clarify whether a MegaTech human-ghost such as I am capable of breaking this routine.


I hate to sound rude, but you need a serious reality check.
_________________
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
-Hamlet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
the_shadow



Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 6
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:37 am    Post subject: o_0 Reply with quote

Not really Spica, I treat my body as if my skin were synthetic. It will not be cut by my own hands, I have tried. A total of 8 cuts to the forearm yielded no results
_________________
~The Shadow~
~Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you.~
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
sonic
Special


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 274

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but it just gave me a slight head and neckache.


Can a MegaTech human-ghost actually get head and neckache, though? Bemused Surprised

Uh, perhaps you should not be cutting up your forearms though, synthetic or not. If only because, whether it's for suicidal reasons or not, it makes others extremely uncomfortable to think that it might be because of suicidal tendancies. And that's no way to get ahead in life.

By the way, I think that getting trapped in destructicve "cycles of self-doubt" is like getting stuck in a rut when it comes to theories... I mean like when you fall in love with Plato, feminism, whatever way of thinking you like, and feel so certain that that's the answer to everything, so you bring everything back to that constantly. I can start to become unconstructive, which is just like self-criticism that can get out of hand- and good tool at first, but something that can suck you in too far and become your prison. You end up not moving ahead for it, and eventually destroying yourself or throwing away other things that are important... without realising it. Does that make sense? It's like, believing that your soul is the real you and that this world isn't important so badly that you discard it... Which is a misguided thing to do, because it means there are things you won't see around you that run the risk of being regrettable later.

sord, I liked the way you linked everything together even though I can't quite believe in it (I mean, without knowing what Shirow's intentions were for certain and the exact amount of input he had over the whole). But well done for making it all sound pretty logical- it is an interpretation that could very easily work to view GitS as a whole from. I did not know the things about SAC- Motoko in that series really has one original arm still? Hmm... of course, the argument about the eventual build up to full-cyborgisation in the movie does fall short a little bit due to the fact that they are stated as being different universes, but ingnoring continuity it's a good idea. It was also really easy to read (compared to the huge-paragraph way I tend to write). Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
simon's ghost



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 188
Location: Montréal area, Québec, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:15 pm    Post subject: Re: o_0 Reply with quote

the_shadow wrote:
Not really Spica, I treat my body as if my skin were synthetic. It will not be cut by my own hands, I have tried. A total of 8 cuts to the forearm yielded no results


Rolling Eyes Has your synthetic skin passed the bullet test?
_________________
Rise up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    in the shell Forum Index -> The Philosophy All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 1 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group