Inconsistensies

Buckledcranium · Post by **Buckledcranium** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:47 am

Its my understanding that SAC is set well before the movies - obvious because The Major mergers with the puppetmaster in the Ghost in the shell 1.

I have a few critiques.

1 - they constantly mess with Togusa in the movie calling him a rookie and newbie - but he'd obviously been working with him for years.

2. theres no Totckomas in the movie, however I expect this to be explained by the time SAC ends. I realize prabably when they made the movie they proabaly opted to just cut them out - as they are kinda unnessicary in the plot.

3. Why in GITS 2 - Innocense is are all the cars suddenly from the 30's and 40's ? It makes no sense - ok I'd buy it if some of the cars were like this but theres no way I'm buying that in the future we all start using retro cars with modern innerworkings - Id say Batau would have one etc as hes a well paid member of an elite special unit - but if you look in the carparks in the movie - the place is swarming with them

Sorry if this seems anal - but Ghost in the Shell is my favorite Anime universe and I hate things like this, cus they are essentially plot holes.

Anyone who can explain this to me will be awarded some kind of medal.

Black Mamba · Post by **Black Mamba** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:58 am

S.A.C doesn't take place before the movie, it takes place in an alternate dimension. If you pay attention to dates, you may see how this is. As the year when the puppetmaster appears has been past (at least I'm pretty sure it has, if it hasn't then someone correct me) in S.A.C.

But I am sure that it takes place not before, but in an alternate dimension.

Motoko2030 · Post by **Motoko2030** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:20 am

Black Mamba, you are correct, SAC is set in an alternate dimension or universe to the Ghost in the Shell films, the first Ghost in the Shell film is set in the year 2029 while the first season of SAC is set in the year 2030 (in an alternate universe where the Puppetmaster doesn't exist)

You are not the only one who found it confusing when I watched the SAC episodes, after I watched the interview with Kenji Kamiyama on SAC 1st season volume 1 DVD, I was no longer confused.

Buckledcranium · Post by **Buckledcranium** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:23 am

thats so stupid why would they choose to make another version of the Ghost in the shell universe?

The one presented to us in the movie was great - I presmued the tv show was created as a way of elaborating and explaining the events years before the film.

If you ask me, I think the dates don't matter so much. I mean look at Back to the Future 2 - look how it depicts hill valley in 2015 - a fairly ambitious claim, or Terminator 2 - how the world will be wiped out in 1999.

Theres no problem with theses shows having contradicting timelines.

But suddenly making a whole new "Dimension" to explain them is stupid in my opinion. Its like George Lucas saying oh yeah I got some things wrong in Star wars episodes 1 -3 so they are in an alternate dimension.

It just confuses the viewers. Especially when you don't expalin this.

Buckledcranium · Post by **Buckledcranium** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:27 am

Why would they do this?

they could make as many seasons as they want and still have it all set before the events of the film.

And they could make parralel seasons set after the first film. Where the Major is gone and perhaps appears to beatu at the end - this season could sort of act as a bridge between the 2 films. And even as a bridge to a 3r d film.

I just think this is sloppy writing thats all.

simon's ghost · Post by **simon's ghost** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:36 am

So i understand an alternate reality is a really stupid idea to you. That's too bad. That's a really nice series you could have enjoyed right there. Personally, I enjoy watching section 9 go at their thing and bringing up intersting topics.

Motoko2030 · Post by **Motoko2030** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:04 am

As for your second question, which was why there are no Tachikomas in the movie, in the Ghost in the Shell manga created by Shirow Masamune, he created think tanks called Fuchikomas and Mamoru Oshii from what I read didn't include the Fuchikomas in the first film because he felt that they were too cute to be put into the film.

Jeni Nielsen · Post by **Jeni Nielsen** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:16 pm

Buckledcranium wrote:thats so stupid why would they choose to make another version of the Ghost in the shell universe?

The one presented to us in the movie was great - I presmued the tv show was created as a way of elaborating and explaining the events years before the film.

If you ask me, I think the dates don't matter so much. I mean look at Back to the Future 2 - look how it depicts hill valley in 2015 - a fairly ambitious claim, or Terminator 2 - how the world will be wiped out in 1999.

Theres no problem with theses shows having contradicting timelines.

But suddenly making a whole new "Dimension" to explain them is stupid in my opinion. Its like George Lucas saying oh yeah I got some things wrong in Star wars episodes 1 -3 so they are in
an alternate dimension.

It just confuses the viewers. Especially when you don't expalin this.

The director on the first DVD says that he did not want to lose Motoko as an individual character since the TV series focuses much more on individual character development. Therefore he did not want to include the puppetmaster, and that made it necessary to change things in the story to fit the lack of merging. In that way I don't see it as a problem. And since they have their reasons for it, I don't see it as "stupid" either.

Black Mamba · Post by **Black Mamba** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:07 pm

When it comes to Ghost in the Shell there is the movie, manga, and series.

Shirow defines the manga, Oshii defines the movies, and Kamiyama defines S.A.C.

All are very good and have their little differences to offer. In a way I find S.A.C. to be a blend between the movie and the manga. Those who've seen, or expierenced both may know what I'm talking about.

So what if Kamiyama created SaC before the movie. Eventually he would reach the puppetmaster, in which case the series would end. I'm very glad the way things are arranged, since each GitS media has its own feel and texture. IMO it would be wrong to merge any two.

Lightice · Post by **Lightice** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:23 pm

Black Mamba wrote: So what if Kamiyama created SaC before the movie. Eventually he would reach the puppetmaster, in which case the series would end. I'm very glad the way things are arranged, since each GitS media has its own feel and texture. IMO it would be wrong to merge any two.

I agree with this. Especially as Oshii didn't got for consistency in his movies, but instead relayed the emotional state of the characters through the surroundings - that is why everything changed in Innocence - it was Batou's viewpoint, that changed. That fits for his movies, but it wouldn't work in a longer series. Kamiyama's vision gives a level of realism to the world, as he tries to relay the problems of the real world through the viewpoint of the future, which is, in it's own league, very commendable.

While Shirow's, Oshii's and Kamiyama's visions all have their merits and flaws, they are so different from each other that the worst thing they could do would be trying to meld them all together.

Motoko2030 · Post by **Motoko2030** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:25 pm

I agree that setting SAC in an alternate universe was the best thing to do for a TV series since Kenji wanted the series to focus on individual character development and I have no problems of the TV series being set in an alternate world than the films. The mangas by Shirow are set in a different universe to the films and the TV series, to check the continuity between the manga, movies and TV series, check out http://www.motorballer.org/shirow/gitscon.html

Buckledcranium · Post by **Buckledcranium** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:40 pm

Ok then its obvious I'm just an immature fan boy amonst Cambridge schollars, you use very academic language to describe what's esentially just very very cool animation.

Don't get me wrong any of you. I love Ghost in the shell. I've read the manga, own the films and am buying the english dub versions of SAC as they are released here.

However about your points.

Okay - I'm sure the reason I said "Thats Stupid" is partially due to my misunderstanding of the whole situation between the different interpretations these different ppl had made in the various mediums in which GITS has been presented.

However - Stand Alone complex could very easily have been set before the film, and in that case avoided all this needless confusion from fans who don't read everything the film makers say about their work.

How was I supposed to know it was in an alternate reality? Films/TV should speak for itself.

Also I wish someone could atleast adknoledge my point here, I still think it would be better to keep it all within the same universe. Just because the film ends with the major merging doesn't mean we can't follow the adventures of Section 9 in the years up to then, for the past 2 years thats what I thought was happening as I watched SAC - it in no way marred my enjoyment, in fact I was looking forward to a season which had a last episode that directly lead into the first film.

and hoped for a season set between the films as I said earlier.

Seriously - from a writing POV its not very smart making all these alternate versions of the same thing.

The Manga could be different sure - what movie adaptation is exactly the same as a book - but I would atleast have kept the movie and tv show consistant.

thats all.

Black Mamba · Post by **Black Mamba** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:09 pm

Ok then its obvious I'm just an immature fan boy amonst Cambridge schollars, you use very academic language to describe what's esentially just very very cool animation.

Just because we use periods and commas, doesn't mean we're "Cambridge Schollars". I'm a freshman in high school and consider myself a GitS fanboy

and in that case avoided all this needless confusion from fans who don't read everything the film makers say about their work.

Since when do film makers make drastic desions so their fans don't have to do a simple google search? I'll admit I was confused at first, in fact my first thread here was about this matter.

Stand Alone complex could very easily have been set before the film

No it couldn't. Have you been reading what we've been saying?

I think your, surprisingly, not seeing how each (wether it be the manga, movie, or series) has its own feel and texture. I wish I could explain futher, but I can't because it can not be put into words.

Seriously - from a writing POV its not very smart making all these alternate versions of the same thing.

Actually I don't see why it wouldn't. Theres not a single, one person doing the writing for everything Ghost in the Shell.

The Manga could be different sure - what movie adaptation is exactly the same as a book - but I would atleast have kept the movie and tv show consistant.

GitS the movie is more than just a manga adaptation. Oshii took it and made it his own. Again I will say it would be a crime to merge such totally different medias. Just because they both have GitS on the cover, doesn't mean their similiar.

I'm sorry if my wording is a bit off, but this is a hard matter for me to explain. I'm sure many here know where I'm coming from and agree with me.

simon's ghost · Post by **simon's ghost** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:13 pm

Then the real question is: why does Shirow accept to sell his story to people who wont stick to it? Probably beacause he makes a whole lot of money from it. It could also be that he just doeasn't think he could direct anime. Then you also have the possibility that he feels one's idea can't be the only good one and enjoy's seeing these GitS byproducts.

Lightice · Post by **Lightice** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:40 am

simon's ghost wrote:Then the real question is: why does Shirow accept to sell his story to people who wont stick to it? Probably beacause he makes a whole lot of money from it. It could also be that he just doeasn't think he could direct anime. Then you also have the possibility that he feels one's idea can't be the only good one and enjoy's seeing these GitS byproducts.

Perhaps he simply knows, that his vision of GitS couldn't be directly translated into an anime - it must be changed to an extent to work in an animation. Also, he might appreciate to see creativity somewhere else than inside his own head.

In the original subject, if every creator wishes to realize their own vision in GitS - and they all do have an interesting and unique vision - then the only choice is various alternate universes. The movie's universe wouldn't have worked in a series and the manga wouldn't have worked as a movie. As such, instead of making stupid compromises, each artist goes into their own direction - but remember that Oshii got advice from Shirow and Kamiyama was adviced by both Oshii and Shirow, so it's not like they acted against each others' hopes, either.

I think the solution was the best there could be. One confused fan here and there doesn't make the difference, especially when the information is so readily available.