Motoko's Strength (Spoilers Added)

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Hopping Fox
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Motoko's Strength (Spoilers Added)

Post by Hopping Fox »

I was watching the SAC 2nd GIG Episode "Poker Face" the other day, and I noticed that the episode epitomized a few recurring characteristics:

1.) Ishikawa informs the "rookie" Batou of Motoko's tactical wisdom and extraordinary foresight in combat situations.

2.) Motoko defeats Saito with superb turn-of-the-moment skill.

There is a distinct trend I'm noticing throughout both seasons of the series in that Motoko is portrayed as an extremely powerful fighter and an almost clairvoyant investigator. And as a specialist in information warfare, she demonstrates the full capabilities of what one would call the perfect warrior. However, I have to wonder if Motoko's fighting prowess is strictly a thematic element within the series, or if it represents something far more embedded in what we call a "hero." This topic may sound like it belongs in the philosophy section, but it ties into too many other subjects to deal primarily with that area of study. Also, I'm more familiar with the SAC media than any other type of media, so it's going here.

I'm posing this argument as a question because I want an opinion from a generally civilian-based group. I've operated in many places and with many people who have varying opinions of what defines a plausible fighter, but there tends to be a bias toward the military know-how and jargon that comes with being a soldier.

First, Motoko herself possesses an excellent ability to determine the modus operandi of her opposition. In fact, given the nature of her tactics, I'd go so far as to say that she operates much like a real counter-terrorist in that her mode of operation is dependent on analyzing a set of contigencies rooted in pre-determined attack patterns. The thing that makes me scratch my head is not a question of realism (that'd take all day to ramble about), but of whether or not this functions as a well-made thematic element or a cliche for general audiences. If I were questioning her abilities in terms of realism, I'd tell you right off the bat that no real special forces, intelligence, counter-intelligence, or law enforcement group can or would operate in her manner. The reason why? Because she wouldn't be the only one working as good as she does; an enemy party would counteract her very quickly. We don't see this in SAC.

For example, there is an episode in the first season that involves a Russian free agent working in the human trafficking market. Like Motoko, she was a fully cyberized woman with extensive combat experience, so this could have made for an interesting battle. I honestly got pretty pumped up for the confrontation between her and Motoko, but she was quickly defeated by Motoko like any other stock "bad guy of the week." Again, realism set aside, it almost seems as though we are to be given the message that Motoko is nearly peerless as a combatant. We do see, however, a few moments where she almost bites the dust (the powered armor, the tank, a hand-to-hand battle with the South American freedom fighter, and so on). Despite these moments, Motoko manages not only to survive, but to excel.

Even when she is struck dead by a sniper, we later learn that it was her old damaged body. Shrewd, indeed, but doesn't that reduce the dramatic function of the story? I have to say that I wasn't surprised when she was shot, crushed under the foot of a powered suit, or nearly strangled by a man twice her size. I remember thinking to myself "eh...she'll be okay". This works well with visual and literary media because it allows an audience not to wonder IF the protagonist is going to survive but HOW (kind of like Rambo, Zatoichi, or James Bond). The problem I have with this device as a dramatic vehicle lies in the possibility that its excessive use can present the image of redundant invicibility in the protagonist. Examples of this can include the frequent (and often cliched) revival of dead characters in comic books and heroes who are the centerpiece of a kind of "monster of the week" format such as Goku in Dragonball Z or the Power Rangers. Fight. Get beaten up. Learn from mistake. Fight again. Win. Wash, rinse, repeat. You get the idea.

I don't think it's a coincidence that I was at the edge of my seat when Section 9 was almost destroyed, its members captured one by one. I do think it's odd, especially for me, to want to see the heroes in their moment of darkness when my professional life involves tragedy, injustice, and the absence of true "good guys". We often think of our favorite books, video games, and TV shows as a means of escape from our ugly little world, but seeing Motoko wipe the floor with so many enemies who could have sworn that they had the upper hand (remember the Chinese assassin?) gets to be a bit of a yawn after so many times. Not only that, but her fighting abilities and quick wits can sometimes produce the side effect of diluting the element of fear produced by her enemies. This can be good in times such as the terrifying NSS agent who was reduced to a whipering baby when Motoko launched series of .50 caliber BMG rounds into the chassis of his armor. It can also be bad in times such as the battle between her and Saito (realistic or not, snipers are not to be encountered at close range with the strategy she used). This is perhaps due to the emotional response she conveys in each battle. She is clearly vindictive and lacking in composure when she threatens the NSS agent. In contrast, Motoko is her typical, average stoic self when she rams a knife into Saito's hand. Her lack of fear in that fight didn't have me saying "wow, she's tough!" It was more along the lines of "Saito is screwed, just like everybody else. Big deal." Needless to say, the opposite effect came into being with the NSS agent.

I've met people like Kuze, who can scare the life out of you with their adamant stance in their political ideologies (and the combat skills to back it up). Those are the characters I enjoy because they give the protagonist something to strive for. I'm willing to bet that a battle between Kuze and Motoko would be extremely climatic due to the idea that the protagonist would have met her match at last. Instead, this fight occurs with Batou, and I have to say that it was the best fight scene I've seen in both seasons of the series. I had no idea that Batou would have his leg broken, or that Kuze would manage to escape on both feet. The need to see a vulnerable hero apparently draws upon the modern perspective of the "average joe" character or, better yet, the anti-hero. Motoko appears to be more of the latter as a modern convention, but it is a relatively extreme case of stoicism and fearlessness that can, if used too often as a plot device, rob an audience of their suspension of disbelief. It is true that retarding her character development can leave the series open for more episodes, but if the character herself is slowed down too much in terms of personal dynamics and idiosyncracies, she may be reduced to a flat character.

Most good novelists and English professors will tell you that a role like that is better suited for an antagonist unless the protagonist is designated as a flat character in order to open character development for the supporting characters. Again, I'm not seeing that here. Saito, Pazu, and Borma don't change because Motoko made a certain unusual remark. Batou might have shown a bit of jealousy toward Kuze (which could have propelled all three characters in another direction), but this opportunity is cast aside in the midst of the haste. Motoko's feelings for Kuze and Batou are repeatedly relegated to oblique dramatic elements, and this is fine for a politically charged drama, but I find (or catch) myself not caring after I see Motoko's stone-cold face as she barks orders or recites Socratic philosophy for the hundredth time. The best assumption I can make for her as a protagonist is that the writers are leaving out personal details to prolong the life of the series.

This is more of a personal response for me, but tell me what you all think. Do you agree? Disagree? Are you on the fence with this issue?
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Post by djcode6 »

Basically I feel that the major is the all around warrior she is great at every thing like you said but that in my opinion is used to attract the members of section nine together like in "Poker Face" and as is stated after her dive into Kuze. She is one of the first to have prosthetics so she has ability's that have developed over time. There are others with special skills that surpass hers that she can over come with section nine members that are drawn to her as there own complex. Her character is growing emotionally but i think they have separated the major and the person Motoko as two different parts of the whole and will probably reveal more in SSS.

I think her strength comes from her knowledge and ability and the effect that has on others.And her experience in the prosthetic body"As long as you can turn a opponents over amped aggregation against them the female models fine" said by motoko when she knocked batou down by hacking him :D
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Elmo
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Post by Elmo »

:( I just did that thing where it logs you out while posting again...

In short then, until I can be bothered to retype it all;

IMO Motoko is too undefeatable in SAC to fully sympathise with as a 'hero' of the series. Her 'l33t hacking'/Information Warfare skills are integeral to her character and her emotional state as set out in her earlier incarnations(manga & first film) and her martial arts skills are just as thematically workable with her getting her mechanical body at an earlier age as we are shown this resulting in her arc towards control and disipline. But her supposed(sometimes it's laughable, especially with those lovely crossfire situations. But realistic is boring anyway :wink: ) tactical competence and sherlockHolmes-like deductions(something of a nessecery evil as there's too short of a time limit on the episodes for slower exposition), too often make her too undefeatable as a protaganist to allow for the suspension of disbelief or maintaining the illusion of peril/danger to her character.
This is why I prefer episodes that make use of the more vunerable members of section9 as the protaganist, especially Togusa who is frequently one step away from getting himself killed. Or even Kuze, who has similar leadership skills to Motoko, has his own refugee milita, is proficient with any weapon from a knife to an boat mounted AA gun :) and is by design an archetypal 'hero'; But he still has the physical, emotional, convictional vunerabilities that Kusanagi lacks for most of SAC and IMO that makes him so much easier to identify with as the hero of SAC.

/me mourns the loss of his better post :(
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Hopping Fox
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Post by Hopping Fox »

Being undefeatable doesn't necessarily deny a character of being a hero in the traditional sense. The creator of the work can make his or her character invicible as they see fit, but the problem I see with this convention is that it deteriorates character development when the audience is not explicitly told that the character must be invicible. It is implied that Motoko is unmatched in combat through the evidence we are given throughout the series, which is not enough to form a logically valid argument.

The evidence of her true prowess is presumptuous at best because we do not see the inner workings of her abilities. We know she possesses a highly advanced body, but we never see the design specifications or physical training needed to capitalize on the body's capabilities. Her hand-to-hand combat skills are, as far as I can tell, just that - hand-to-hand combat skills. It's a bit prejudiced (yes, I'm being nitpicky) to call those skills martial arts because we never truly discover the source of those abilities. I could be wrong, but after having seen her character's dynamics, abilities, and background, I believe that these skills we see are a military-based fighting system rooted in lethality and immobilization.

The acrobatics she incorporates into her fighting techniques seem to exist for dramatic effect more than anything else, but they serve a purpose...for her. Motoko may represent the future of combat scenario exercises in that her form is quinessential of what the best fighters would use. If I had her body, I would most certainly take advantage of its agility, as would any other fighter. Do you see where I'm going with this? If one body like that exists, there must be more, and some level of standardization will inevitably come into being. This is a common cyclic practice of warfare and law enforcement. Your enemy gets body armor. You get armor-piercing rounds. Your enemy gets electronic capablities. You get electronic countermeasures. The Chinese assassin, the Russian trafficker, and Kuze are just a few top-notch fighters. Eventually, someone will outperform her, and going back the drawing board to swap for a newer, better body just isn't enough in terms of tactical understanding.

The error I just made was in making an assumption that is beyond the scope of the series, that is, on the grounds that I have little feedback from the series. Motoko could be a novice in Wing Chun. She could be an expert in Bagua Zhang or a lousy practitioner of some unknown military HTH system that is entirely fictitious. I don't have a problem not knowing these things about her. I do have a problem with the feeling that I may never know these things, and this is not simply a result of impatience. It doesn't take thirty minutes for her to say "When I was in Marksmanship Training..." or "By the way, I picked up this idea from Sensei so-and-so". In less than three seconds, a Taichikoma suggests that Saito has an artificial eye and right arm. That makes a big difference for Saito as a character because it makes an audience wonder why he is the way he is. I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but I can't shake the feeling that when I see Motoko, I think "Yep, that's her because that's what she does" as opposed to occassionally asking "Why does she do that?" You can only dangle a piece of meat over the lion's head before he either gives up or pounces on you.

Elmo, I definitely agree with your comments about Togusa and Kuze. I thoroughly enjoy seeing Togusa's family life, and the episode that details Kuze's childhood and military experiences brings a great deal of interest into each avenue of his characterization. One reason why I liked Kuze's battle with Batou so much is because I know that Batou will strike a certain way. He is a former Ranger with a well-evidenced short temper. Similar comments can be made about Kuze, but I'm not really jumping for joy when I see Motoko land a lightining-fast arm bar or a reverse joint lock.

Yeah, she had a hard time folding cranes with her prosthetic body. Yeah, she affectionately embraced Kuze and, to a lesser degree, Batou. She can love, she can cry out in pain, and she can laugh. I just cannot see a prolonged interest in her as a stand-alone character (no pun intended). I feel as if I know her as a friend of a friend. In other words, I know her through Saito, Arimaki, Batou, Togusa, Ishikawa, Borma, and others because they're the ones saying things like "she's the amazon who doesn't need backup" or "she might have intended for this or that to happen". They basically serve the purpose of speaking for me. They ask the questions I'm thinking, and they seem to be scratching their heads as much as I do (namely poor ol' Togusa). I'm not saying the writers don't know what they're doing, but I am saying this after having experienced much education and hardship in the area of fiction writing and storytelling: don't leave your audience in the dark for too long. If they want us to get to know Motoko obliquely or in a transitory manner, they're doing an excellent job. If they want us to know Motoko as she presents herself, then I help but be a bit apprehensive after a while.
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THYREN
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Post by THYREN »

Unbeatable ??? I didn't read all what has been said so far but ... she got her ass kicked by an exoskeleton soldier (in the episode 24 or 25 of the first season I think) and also by the tank at the end of the very first movie. :roll:

If she was really unbeatable, we would already have lost interest in GitS ! :wink:
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Post by headpower »

If motoko is unbeatable, she will be called GUNDAM
Hopping Fox
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Post by Hopping Fox »

Thyren, with all due respect, you really should go back and read the past posts. I don't think you would have said that if you did.

Also, bear in mind that the "exoskeleton soldier" was trapped in his own weapon after Motoko, with the utmost fury, fired several anti-material rounds into the hull of the chassis. Even when she was nearly killed by the tank in the movie, she didn't exactly break down and scream "Oh God, don't kill me."
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Post by Elmo »

Tbh having her arms ripped off or her head crushed a bit seems to be little more than the equivalent of a skinned knee to the superman-like purple haired wonder. :P

Not that there's anything wrong with that, she's in perfect superhero tradition. She puts on the skin tight costume and leaps buildings in single bounds, shrugging off potentially lethal wounds and taking on big stompy robots. But an important part of a character conforming to a superhero archetype is for the character to have a human side who can have a past and is easier to relate to. SPAWN had his Al Simmons, Superman his Clark Kent, Spiderman had Peter Parker and Motoko Kusanagi has Section9. They've pushed her character so far into being distant and stoic, that if she was to reveal more about her personal history or explain her actions more then it would seem out of character and wrong for her voice. So they repurpose Section9 to do that instead. I guess that can make her seem like a very flat character, but it works fine when she's performing within the group dynamic of Section9.

...or it could all be just more anime cliche :)
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Epiphany
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Post by Epiphany »

I think 2nd gig explains a lot of why she has her stand-off personality. I think that cyber-brain or not she is very introspective. having doubts about the value of what she has become. She seems to be be struggling to keep her last remaining spark of humanity. There is a deep sadness in her. This is also touched on in the scene on the boat in the first movie. It's as if she feels completely seperated from humanity and regrets it.

in poker face Saito thinks she is downloading a program that will help her defeat him. So it would seem she can get any skills she needs for any situation simple by downloading them. ( looks like this is where the idea for The Matrix got started )

As for Section 9's recruit training. I believe if the Major wants you in. Your in. Doesn't matter if you can pass a test or not. In the 1st movie she tells Togusa that she recruited him because of his skills and his differences. then again in the Geisha House episode she implies that it was her choise that brought him into section 9.
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Epiphany
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Post by Epiphany »

I also think that if it wasn't for section 9, Motoko would have ended up some sort of an assasin. She seems to enjoy the chase. I don't think she would care which side of the law she is on. She really enjoyed killing the deplomat in the beginning of GITS movie 1. There have been several other places in the movies and the series that she seemed to enjoy the violence more than she should have.

She seems to have a very vindictive side to her. when she was killing the guy in the combat suite, it seemed she was enjoyong the fact that he was begging for his life. She just kept shooting long after he was no longer a threat to her.

She's only a hero because the outcome of her violence. The people she distroys are a threat to society in general where she is just a threat to those shes chasing.

That said. she is still a very interesting character. and for some strange reason i still like her. maybe its an alter ego thing
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Post by NotAnAverageAnimeFan »

Elmo wrote:Tbh having her arms ripped off or her head crushed a bit seems to be little more than the equivalent of a skinned knee to the superman-like purple haired wonder. :P :)
Can't say I agree with this whole super woman theory you guys are talking about. Sure, the Major is amazing but I think there have been several ocassions in which the Major would have been finished if not for the intervention of others. In terms of skill she is matched only by a few, but in the world of ghost in the shell skill is sometimes not enough. Alot of the time she gets lucky (or the show's creators simply have to let her live for the sake of the fans :wink:) For instance, in the first GIG when she tries to trace Nanoa=A through one of the victims of his viruse and she triggers the dummy attack barrier which would have killed her if it were real. When you get right down to it she is just like any other solider.

You'll also notice that the only time the major almost meets her demise is in the face of superior technology, not skill, such as a tank or exosceleton, or helicopter.
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Epiphany
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Post by Epiphany »

One question I have about her. Does she require air to live? If she is totally cyborg why the comment about drowning in the first series, when she was floating in the ocean?

Also she seems to have a total disregaurd for her own cybernetics. In the 1st series she rips her own arms off trying to get into the tank. Then again she almost does the same in 2nd gig.
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douyang
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Post by douyang »

Yes, cyborgs need to breathe in this universe. I have no idea why...maybe it's just that fleshy brain.
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Post by Lightice »

If you have any organic parts in your body, you need oxygen that needs to come from somewhere. And even an inorganic system may use oxygen for some functions, since it's so plentiful in this world.
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Post by marto_motoko »

She might be epitomysed for her strenght, but it's perfect foil against herself, concidering the obvious weakness that she displays in herself, and her doubts. Clearly that can be seen in many cases, such as her need for her wristwatch in order for her to maintain a secure sense of identity. While she may be a perfect weapon, in no way is she invinsible. Her offensive will always be near-impossible for take down, but her defensive, if pushed in the right spot, can crumble like a wall.

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