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Jeni Nielsen



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 405

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NotAnAverageAnimeFan wrote:
Lightice, you might possibly be one of the most intellegent people in this forum, and you have my praise for that, but when it comes to this area of expertise your opinion is flimsy. By flimsy I mean it's inexperienced because you live a in utopia that hasn't had to deal with any of these issues in yourlife time, your just an observer.


Maybe they're just dealing with the issues better than the rest of the world? I think that you need to use some examples if the rest of us are going to believe that this isn't just a personal attack.
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NotAnAverageAnimeFan



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeni Nielsen wrote:

Maybe they're just dealing with the issues better than the rest of the world? I think that you need to use some examples if the rest of us are going to believe that this isn't just a personal attack.


I just meant that he and the majority of the users live under completely different surcome stances than the people we are judging so how could we possibly understand them? It is no different than them judging us. I guess I'm really saying don't judge others till you've walked in their shoes. We can philosophice about the actions of soliders until are faces turn blue but until we have actually been to battle our babble is no more than just the babble of inexperienced civilians. Im sure its a little different when your emotionally attached to the situation.
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Jeni Nielsen



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 405

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NotAnAverageAnimeFan wrote:
Jeni Nielsen wrote:

Maybe they're just dealing with the issues better than the rest of the world? I think that you need to use some examples if the rest of us are going to believe that this isn't just a personal attack.


I just meant that he and the majority of the users live under completely different surcome stances than the people we are judging so how could we possibly understand them? It is no different than them judging us. I guess I'm really saying don't judge others till you've walked in their shoes. We can philosophice about the actions of soliders until are faces turn blue but until we have actually been to battle our babble is no more than just the babble of inexperienced civilians. Im sure its a little different when your emotionally attached to the situation.


surcome stances---> circumstances

Just because you don't live in another person's country doesn't mean that you can't understand what they go through, does it? Certainly there is some merit to saying that "we must talk from experience," but it's also very limiting to think that way. There's something to be said for informed empathic understanding.
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Lightice



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 313

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, I did point out, that trying to implement the judical system of one country in another doesn't neccesarily work out. Certainly I didn't mean that the US should copy Finland's system down to the last detail.

Quote:
Lightice, you might possibly be one of the most intellegent people in this forum


Thanks for the praise - I don't think that anyone has ever initiated a debate against my views with those words. Cool

Quote:
By flimsy I mean it's inexperienced because you live a in utopia that hasn't had to deal with any of these issues in yourlife time, your just an observer.


Utopia means a place that doesn't exist and Finland is most definately a real place with real laws and real crime. I admit that I don't have first-hand experience of the life of crime, but I don't think that's neccesarily required to make observations.

Now, the US has huge crimerates and more firearm-related crimes than any other country outside the Third World. It also has one of the harshest judical systems in the Western world, which doesn't seem to affect the said rates, very much. As an external observer, I'd say that there is something wrong with a system like that. In comparsion there is a system I live under, which is quite functional, at least in comparsion, although certainly not without flaws of its own. Trying to fit one to another would almost undoubtedly spell a disaster, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be comparsion or influence taken from the countries of the Nordic sphere - after all, we are among the most succesful nations in the world, both in economy and lifestyle, as well as very low crimerates.

We've gotten quite far in off-topic, though, but it seems that the original starters of the debate are no longer around. However, I'm not terribly thrilled to go in a prolonged debate of the current matter - as it has been pointed out, I'm no expert and I can say very little besides statistics and what I think they imply, which may or may not be correct. I can say that there is something wrong with the US judical system and goverment, but I can't claim to have any idea what could be done with them. I can only give comprasions, but like I've mentioned, what's functional in one culture and country isn't neccesarily so in another. As such, unless there'll be something I can comfortably contribute to, I'll call quits for this debate.
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Elmo



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 219
Location: Plato's Cave Weapon of Choice: Sarcasm

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has to be one of the more impressive diversions a thread has ever seen...
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Animae



Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m still here, I just consider the original purpose of this thread fulfilled and therefore I see it as meaningless to carry on discussions.
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Jeni Nielsen



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 405

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Animae wrote:
I’m still here, I just consider the original purpose of this thread fulfilled and therefore I see it as meaningless to carry on discussions.


Then would you like me to lock this topic, or shall we keep going on on topic?

My own deep apologies for derailing the conversation. Crying or Very sad
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NotAnAverageAnimeFan



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, umm, sorry for ranting back there. I grew to regret my posts not to long after I said them and in truth they have kind of been plagueing my mind ever since, or rather the kind of responses they would inspire. Ironically, I was quick to say an outsider couldn't hold a valid opinion in this discussion yet I have always thought people need to detach themselves from certian situations in order to make better decisions (thinking like an economist?). I guess all I accomplished is showing where I stand in Ghost In The Shell's intellectual fanbase Crying or Very sad .
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Jeni Nielsen



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 405

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NotAnAverageAnimeFan wrote:
Yeah, umm, sorry for ranting back there. I grew to regret my posts not to long after I said them and in truth they have kind of been plagueing my mind ever since, or rather the kind of responses they would inspire. Ironically, I was quick to say an outsider couldn't hold a valid opinion in this discussion yet I have always thought people need to detach themselves from certian situations in order to make better decisions (thinking like an economist?). I guess all I accomplished is showing where I stand in Ghost In The Shell's intellectual fanbase Crying or Very sad .


Now now, don't cry. Smile At least you can realize what you said and what the consequences might be, right. The only reason I called you on your post was to make you think about what you said and perhaps let you clarify what you meant. It wasn't to make you feel stupid or foolish.

And you did make a valid point that sometimes we have to have experience of things to talk about them. Lightice even said so himself in his next post. So really, don't worry.
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simon's ghost



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 188
Location: Montréal area, Québec, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really wish I had more free time to take part in these debates rather than just reading them, which is also enlightening yet not as stimulating...
Anyways, hello all! Keep at it.
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Donshonto
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh Lightice- I think I must have misworded myself. I agree with you, in my opinion, premediatvely killing yourself in the name of an idea or beliefs sounds radical to me. I don't think you should do that. Unless you're in some sort of weird sci-fi movie scenario in which one of you has to go out and activate some deus ex machina to save the everyone. That's probably the only premeditave matrydom I agree upon.

And as for the death penalty, I'm really split. I belive in redemption. For instance, there was once a man named Saul who massacred a large large number Christians for their beliefs and today this man is recognized as one of the most venerated people in the Christian faith. Who is this man? None other than St.Paul.

Then again, I think death penalty should be applicable for like child rape, rape, torture, any Ed Gein shit, cannibalism, or you know, really radical crimes like that. So I'm really split.
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Lightice



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 313

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donshonto wrote:
Unless you're in some sort of weird sci-fi movie scenario in which one of you has to go out and activate some deus ex machina to save the everyone. That's probably the only premeditave matrydom I agree upon.


Well, those situations are usually do or die, so no real options exist, there. Then again, usually it's not impossible to at least try to save yourself, when you're done.

Quote:
I belive in redemption. For instance, there was once a man named Saul who massacred a large large number Christians for their beliefs and today this man is recognized as one of the most venerated people in the Christian faith. Who is this man? None other than St.Paul.


I remember the guy - a bigoted bastard, before and after. A politican, rather than a religous man. From some of his letters I can get an impression that he wanted to have the Christians follow himself, rather than Jesus's commands.
There propably are plenty of tales of redemption, out there, but the books of religion tend to decipt them in a rather twisted way...

Quote:
Then again, I think death penalty should be applicable for like child rape, rape, torture, any Ed Gein shit, cannibalism, or you know, really radical crimes like that. So I'm really split.


Because two wrongs make a right? The reason why not to kill that kinds of people unless there is no choice is to avoid doing exactly what they do. And isn't cannibalism, in itself harmless? It's the preceding killing, that's fucked up. Whatever happens afterwards is a minor issue compared to it, unless you're a tabloid-reporter.
And incidentally, there are plenty of perfectly non-violent crimes - and sometimes they're not even proper crimes - that can get possibly up to thousands of civilians killed. That is to say, crimes and deeds that affect the economy and stability of developing countries. In what code should they be punished, when they cause far larger scale of death and destruction than any serial killer?
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Donshonto
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Then again, I think death penalty should be applicable for like child rape, rape, torture, any Ed Gein shit, cannibalism, or you know, really radical crimes like that. So I'm really split.


Because two wrongs make a right? The reason why not to kill that kinds of people unless there is no choice is to avoid doing exactly what they do. And isn't cannibalism, in itself harmless? It's the preceding killing, that's fucked up. Whatever happens afterwards is a minor issue compared to it, unless you're a tabloid-reporter.
And incidentally, there are plenty of perfectly non-violent crimes - and sometimes they're not even proper crimes - that can get possibly up to thousands of civilians killed. That is to say, crimes and deeds that affect the economy and stability of developing countries. In what code should they be punished, when they cause far larger scale of death and destruction than any serial killer?[/quote]

Really, all I know is the 3 lefts is a right.

But yeah, my justification of the death penalty is basically 1)justice 2)detterrant(sp, early in the morning)
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Elmo



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 219
Location: Plato's Cave Weapon of Choice: Sarcasm

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO if you start imposing a death sentence then it's pretty much an acknowledgement that your law system is just public revenge.
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-Animae-



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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Location: Ascending

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The American approach on death sentence is inefficient in the sense that its more expensive to have a death sentence than letting someone stay for life in prison if I recall correctly.
It could be done with the approach that it is cheaper to have death sentences that to deal with the criminals, and you would avoid the vengeance argument.
I believe that idealistically, death sentences make a lot of sense, however it is difficult to get them to work appropriately in practice.
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