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Is Innocence worth watching?
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douyang



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 128

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:33 pm    Post subject: Is Innocence worth watching? Reply with quote

I can't make up my mind as to whether to watch Ghost in the Shell Innocence. I leery of what the Gits universe will be like without the major playing a leading role, and I hear it sacrifices the plot and characters for the sake of vague philisophical messages and wanders off topic. On the other hand, I've seen for myself the quality of the cinematography and visuals. But what about the characters? Will we learn anything interesting aboutm Batou or the rest of section 9, or gain more insight into the increasingly artificial and data dependent society they live in?
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H-street



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yea its worth it, i thought it was just as good as any of them..

considering that Innocense and GITS the Movie are completely different from SAC, its worth it to watch Innocense in relation to the movie..
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Neuromancer



Joined: 14 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it seems to me that the movie wanders so far off topic it ends up to not be in this solar system. Confused
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Marf



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the script is quotes from philosiphers.
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THYREN



Joined: 09 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're a GitS fan, I don't even know why you wander IF you should watch it or not. Rolling Eyes

Just watch it and you'll see.

IMO, it's the best thing ever done in the GitS universe, but I perfectly understand that they are a lot of people who are overwhelmed by Oshii's metaphysical point of view Wink
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Elmo



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best animated film ever made imo. Smile
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marto_motoko



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elmo wrote:
Best animated film ever made imo. Smile


*nod nod* Quite well put. I like the fact there's less than ten words in a perfect comment and summary of the film! Razz
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Snatcher



Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In reality it only has 22 quotes, and most are from poems while just around 10 are from philosophers. So that should really not be a problem.

I simply love the movie and recommend it to any GITS fan as an incredible piece, and you can also find several nods to it in SAC if you know the dialogue and situations.

It might seem dense at first, but it really isn't. It is way more human and close than what it might appear. And visualy, well you already know the answer there. The audio and music are also top notch, so if you can view the DTS ES version I'd highly recommend that as well.
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james_sb



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watch it.

While we're on the topic, I won't bother with a new thread for this...

I bought Innocence recently with English Dub. I'd seen it a few times with English Fan-subs. But this Richard Epcar guy who directed the English version and did Batou's voice seems to have used his artisitic licence. Some scenes don't use a bit of the same dialouge as in the Fan-sub, which I'm assuming are closer to the direct translation.. The annoying thing is, the english subs on the offical edition are different again for the most part from the english dialouge. Having watched the film about 4 times now altogether, the English version is inferior to the Japanese with fan-subs. (I can't understand Japanese, thought that's pretty obvious by now).

Anyway, point is it's hard enough when you try to understand the characters and the philosophy, and the sub-plots without them being entirely re-written by a guy that's only involved in post production and hasn't seen how the story developed in the writer and the directors minds over the 3 years it was in production.

That said the whole thing is worth it just for the visuals. The carnival scene took a year to make, and the shop scene took 9 months! That's an entire simpsons episode finished right there.
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Snatcher



Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_sb, I must reply to what you discuss since I have been (some might say obsessed) with that issue myself.

I must say, to make a large story short, that the american and japanese English subtitles are the best and more accurate available. The Dub is pretty close to that translation, but they do change some dialogue.

The fan sub (I assume that the subtitles available on the net) are sometimes completely off the mark, and sometimes too literal, loosing part of the message and also in some cases changing the dialogue completely to discuss some other thing. It is not a bad fan sub, it is quite nice and has some good notes and remarks, but some parts are completely wrong.

Unfortunately the UK version subtitles are the worse from every version (believe me, I bought all of them). i must say that I do know some Japanese, not to teh level of understanding it fully without subtitles, but to teh level of having the original text in Japanese and be able to roughly translate it and compare line by line. Since I was so into this to make my own edition of the dvd (taking the video track and DTS track from the International version, the UK audio and reconded it as NTSC and synched it, my own track of notes in subtitles, the commentary, the subtitles of the commentary..) I made my own version of the subtitles, I was decided to correct all the wrongs. Armed with all the subtitles available in the Chines, Korean, Japanese, American and UK versions as well as teh original storyboards and scripts, dived into it. After changing it in several places, I finally returned to the original Japanese subtitles in English with just a few modifications (15 lines at most, like modifying the references to Gabriel from him to her, and when Aramaki sends them off). I must say they are very accurate, even in the type of elegant language used.
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james_sb



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, that's pretty heavy going there. Where did you get the original storyboards and scripts?

So your saying that the region 2 version I have [U.K.] has the worst subtitles, the Japanese version which has English subtitles is better? That's unfortunate cos I doubt I'll get my hands on that. I was thinking of just trying to learn some Japanese, but I've never been good at languages...
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Jeni Nielsen



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_sb wrote:
Watch it.

While we're on the topic, I won't bother with a new thread for this...

I bought Innocence recently with English Dub. I'd seen it a few times with English Fan-subs. But this Richard Epcar guy who directed the English version and did Batou's voice seems to have used his artisitic licence. Some scenes don't use a bit of the same dialouge as in the Fan-sub, which I'm assuming are closer to the direct translation.. The annoying thing is, the english subs on the offical edition are different again for the most part from the english dialouge. Having watched the film about 4 times now altogether, the English version is inferior to the Japanese with fan-subs. (I can't understand Japanese, thought that's pretty obvious by now).

Anyway, point is it's hard enough when you try to understand the characters and the philosophy, and the sub-plots without them being entirely re-written by a guy that's only involved in post production and hasn't seen how the story developed in the writer and the directors minds over the 3 years it was in production.

That said the whole thing is worth it just for the visuals. The carnival scene took a year to make, and the shop scene took 9 months! That's an entire simpsons episode finished right there.


Assuming that a fansub is closer to the original is just plain wrong. Official dubs get official scripts and good translators who don't just have to work by ear. You're basing most of your whole assumption on the fact that you think a fansub is better than someone sitting down with a script and painstakingly translating it and then going over it so it works in English. I actually remember the fansubs, what I saw of them, being average at best. Even a good fansub translator working by ear would have a heck of a time with all the technobabble that goes on in the GITS universe.

As for the official American dub/sub, Dave Flemming is one of the best translators in the anime business. His translations are consistent, and convey the meanings and nuances of Japanese very strongly in English. His Gankutsuou and Samurai Champloo translations are top of the line. And remember this is coming from someone who has studied Japanese for over 8 years. I have nothing but respect for him. I have much less respect for those who know absolutely no Japanese complaining about translations. Evil or Very Mad
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james_sb



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm sure they are good, but look at the effort Snatcher went through. Don't write off fan subs.

For example, one thing I disliked about the English Dub was cyberbrains are now refered to as e-brains. As if the english speaking audience are 2 week old computer illerates, and the previous film meant nothing. And if that pop-culture wasn't enough, the dialouge was dummed down containing less nuances, being more straight-forward. Which i felt to be out of character for the film, and more for a broader audience.

But having said that, I'm sure they're good at Japanese. That's probably why he was paid for his work.

#edit#
I should mention, I've the UK, Region 2 version but I'm assuming they only made one English dub and we've the same one. But assumptions can be wrong....
#edit#
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Last edited by james_sb on Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jeni Nielsen



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Believe me, I've seen a lot of fansubs, and some of them are done very well (those that aren't fanpandering schlock jobs that are rushed to the point of idiocy), but in my opinion nothing compares to a good official translation.

But to each his own. I think your points are valid. I just don't agree with them.

EDIT to your EDIT :)

They most likely aren't the same. Since they're released by two different companies as far as I can tell. But you said that Richard Epcar did the directing so maybe it is the same? I dunno.

ONE MORE EDIT:

Since you are taking offense to translation inconsistencies, which actually bother me too to some extent, remember that the translations have not always been done by the same person, and that fact makes it inevitable that there will be some inconsistencies since every translator interprets things differently. E-brain and cyberbrain is one example of that. It's a translators perrogative to choose what they think is best suited to convey the meaning of the Japanese word in English. Two different translators chose two different things in this case. Does it make it a wrong choice? I don't know.
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Snatcher



Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The official translation for Innocence (Japan and US) was done by Linda Hoaglund and Judith Aley, and man is it really good. I did change some bits in my personal version (which I don't consider a fansub, although I guess it is a fan corrected official track, which would make, well, a fansub).

I did find the fansub floating around the net encouraging at first, but after a closer look and comparing it to the offciial ones, way inferior. Though the notes on the sources of the quotes are mostly accurate; and I respect their intention of placing teh quotes as they are generally used in English. Even though I found myself using the same compromise as in the official translation, and letting some of them flow better in the space given for the text so they don't obstruct by being too long.

I do have some gripes with the UK subtitles though, and I believe that there are more arbitrary desicions taken in that specific version than in the official Japanese and American track. Don't take me wrong, the UK release is very good and I loved the dub, even with those disparities mentioned (I am used of them being refered different in every translation, the manga, etc If it serves for something the term used in the Japanese original is literaly translated as electronic brain, composed of teh two Kanjis Electricity and Brain). But I was dissapointed to find out it was not the perfect release I was hopping it to be, and the problem was the subtitled track. One of this changes is Locus Solus' name to Rox (might have a connotation there that I don't know about). I am also not happy about some lines that were completely changes "just because". Like saying: "Damned Section 9 cyborg. No matter how many lives they take, it's never enough." about Batou as opposed by "Keep your distance, I hear his bum luck catches like the plague." in the offcial translation. The literal translation of what was said in Japanese is something like: "How many lives affected by that plage/angel of death will be enough". As you can see both have part of the meaning in the original.. but each one takes it in a different direction. Difficult call, if you watch the movie you can see that he is advision him not to interfere by hisactions.. but the dialogue alone may convey a completely different thing to a translator that only has the text. It is a difficult thing to convey the same meaning, message and intentions in one phrase, but I believe the non UK version to be better in such cases.

Or take the following dialogue, after asking the detective for directions to forensics (during the elevator):

UK Version:
B: When you were a detective, were you hurt by some big guys?
T: That's why I don't like seeing my old self.
B: If your face is disfigured, don't blame the mirror.
T: The mirror leads not to the land of enlightenment but to confusion.
B: You don't have the face of somebody who gets lost in a mirror.

And here is the US/Japanese version:

B: Back when you were a detective, didn't you also talk back to guys who came out of nowhere and tried to take over your case?
T: That's why it's so irritating... It's like watching my old self.
B: "It is no use to blame the looking glass if your face is askew. "
T: "The mirror is not an instrument of enlightenment but of illusion. "
B: Well, neither of us has looks worth staring at in the mirror.

I beieve a lot was lost there.. and most of the UK translation feels and reads that way.

One change that I made that was not referenced in any other version is having Gabriel's sex defined as female as opposed to the official translation having it being called a male. From all the material I've gathered, it is clear that Mr Oshi had the intention of it being a direct representation of his own dog, which is female (even having her do the sounds for the movie)

EDIT 1:

Theer is only one dub, and only present in the UK release of the film as far as I know (I don't have any other Eropean release).

regarding teh storyboards and scripts, they are present in book form in Japan. A book was published with teh storyboard, and there is a special edition (the staff box) that has three booklets. One is the storyboard, and the other two are the script. The first one is the draft of it of 2001/02/15 and the other one is the final version. They are all in Japanese only.
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