2nd GIG Episode 22

douyang · Post by **douyang** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:45 am

There was only one thing I didn't get about this episode, and it was where Batou said that Gouda had become Kuze's mimicker rather than the other way around. How is this possible and what does it mean? Is he just saying that Kuze, originally a pawn, has now become the puppetmaster and taken control of the situation?

The birds were pretty cool. I think they were crows, but I'm not sure.

Motoko2030 · Post by **Motoko2030** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:58 am

I think you are right, Kuze was a pawn in Gouda's initial plan but Kuze survived the suicide of the Indivual Eleven and went on to helping the refugees make Dejima a separate nation from Japan. So Kuze went from a pawn to a master that surpassed Gouda.

Does anyone know the significance of birds, especially crows in anime, all of the anime series that I have seen have featured crows, I heard of a significance of them but I can't seem to remember what it is.

This episode was another great SAC wnd Gig episode and I like Motoko's habit of biting her thumb, she seems to do it a lot in the SAC universe.

douyang · Post by **douyang** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:17 am

Well, the only white crow obviously represents Kuze and his uniqueness as the wild card that will determine the fate of Japan. I think crows in general represent death (site of individual eleven suicide and shrine) and harbringers/messengers. Possibly messengers of the chaos and death that is to come when the Japan finally goes to war with the refugees, and faces the very real possibility of getting caught in their own Vietnam within their own borders, in an bloody and indefinite insurgency.

miki-chan · Post by **miki-chan** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:35 pm

I nearly choked on my breakfast cereal when Gouda claimed that the common factor for the individualists was...virginity?

And lo, the clouds parted, and the voice of the divine Anna Russell proclaimed from on high, "I'm not the least bit surprised!"

Tonks_kittygoth · Post by **Tonks_kittygoth** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:20 pm

Crows and ravens are very closely linked in myth/symbol.
I think those were crows but here is some info on both...

Personally I love Crows. I know they are scavangers, but so were early humans they think. Crows are smart and beautiful.

Once I saw a giant Raven, it came up almost to my waist. (Ok I am short but still!) It was So beautiful, but when it landed on our picknick bench, we decided that maybe it was a good idea to let the giant dino-decended-birdy win...

I know crows are sometimes thought to be psycopomps, along w/ sparrows, moths and some other creatures, usually w/ wings. (Psychopomp=brings soul from body to heaven)

They are often linked with the sun, as in Apollo, and war, because they eat carrion.

In Amer. Indian myth Crow was, along with Coyote, the trickster god, like Loki in Norse myth, but he was more troublesome than even Coyote. (see Heckle and Jeckle, the mgm cartoon troublemakers)
Crow is also sometimes the great spirit whos wings created the world.

I think the Trickster identification goes well with Ghoda/Kuze and even Sec 9.

Speaking of Norse Myth, Odin kept a couple of crows around; Hugin and Mugin (Thought and Memory) who he sent on missions to gather info. Odin was somewhat of a trickster himself as well.

The Morrigan, and the Badb and I think the Calliach could take the form of a crow/raven also, (Celtic goddesses of fertility and war)

The Ravens that live at the tower of london are considered lucky and if they ever leave, something nasty I cant remember is going to happen, probably England falling, or maybe just the tower... (Help Brits)

Crows are also supposed to be one of the smartest birds, known to use tools, seperate workloads in thier comunity, and learn to speak. (Nevermore) (ok, raven but close...)

One of my favorite Grapic Novel charecters is Mathew the Raven in Gaiman's Sandman. He liked to hang out with Eve too. Aparently his libraian Lucien was once a Raven as well.

Then of course there was "The Crow" (the GN is much better than the movie)

I also remember some myth about the Crow originally being white...

Finally there is also a saying that "one only needs to see one white crow to prove all crows are not Black." This is apparently a phrase picked up by the paranormal comunity to say that one provable example is all they need.
It is also linked with Godels Incompleteness Theorem. Which is a logical principle that there are in existance true things that Cannot be proven.
Another idea linked with this theory is that "it is imposible to build inteligent machines."

Im guessing that the last bit may be linked to the episode in question.

Where I live there used to be lots of crows, not long ago, many dissapeared, Im guessing due to West Nile Disease or something.

Consequently Seagulls took thier places inland scavaging for garbage in parkinglots of malls. The Crows are coming back now, and they have an uneasy truce going on w/ the Seagulls.

I like to watch them as they shift thier boundries, moving from light post to lightpost, and building corner to building corner.

Lightice · Post by **Lightice** » Mon May 01, 2006 2:16 am

miki-chan wrote:I nearly choked on my breakfast cereal when Gouda claimed that the common factor for the individualists was...virginity?

Umm...Not quite. It was the factor that separated Kuze from the other Individualists. And more importantly, the factor was being virgin before cyborgization, which Kuze would pretty much automatically pass, having become a full cyborg as a child.

Now, about Gouda being Kuze's mimicer. This doesn't imply, that Kuze would have actually taken control - he still doesn't even know that Gouda exists or that he has been manipulated, apart from the original taught control virus.
However, his actions have begun to inspire Gouda in similar way he inspires the refugees. Gouda has always admired heroes and now he has one that he believes to have created. While setting up the nuclear bomb was technically a part of his scenario, it is also, in some way, a homage to Kuze and his actions - and it has given Kuze a chance to play the nuclear threat, after all, despite of not actually having the plutonium.
Unfortunately, despite of Gouda's unconsious admiration for Kuze, he knows that a hero's birth is always fulfilled by death...

base of the pillar · Post by **base of the pillar** » Mon May 01, 2006 3:53 am

See now I thought that Gouda was saying that the trigger for the virus that made you and individual eleven rather then just a container for the virus. I thought this would be the trigger for one of three reasons.
1. Gouda did it in a fit of narcissism.
2. He made it the trigger banking on the fact that a virgin would be through sexual frustration or increased strenght would make them more apt to marter themselves.
3. He fell on the classic "If I'm not going to get any they won't get any."

miki-chan · Post by **miki-chan** » Mon May 01, 2006 5:35 pm

And more importantly, the factor was being virgin before cyborgization, which Kuze would pretty much automatically pass, having become a full cyborg as a child.

I still think it's a loopy plot device. And I still think the Anna Russell quote very much applies to Gohda (strictly based on his personality, mind you).

Tonks_kittygoth · Post by **Tonks_kittygoth** » Mon May 01, 2006 10:39 pm

Lightice says

And more importantly, the factor was being virgin before cyborgization, which Kuze would pretty much automatically pass, having become a full cyborg as a child

The Major also would fit this.
My husband who I havent succeeded in draging onto this forum yet, sugests that that is why Batou was so extremely pissed at Ghoda's words.
I dont know, but its worth bringing up.

Secondly a psudo question,.. They arnt implying that after cyberization you no longer can have sex are they? Cause they have dealt w/ sexuality quite a bit, usually implying that it was still a part of Cyborosity.

Or is that a um, how to put it, like added feature if you have enough money? I could see that, like in the one shot episode about the disgruntled pilot/chauffer guy who had Ken doll parts when the masuse uncovered his bits.

Another asside, back to the crow thing. I was thinking about it later, and wonder if there was any implications on "jim crow" laws for refugees. It may be a strech as thats a pretty american thing, and Im not sure how many other countries are familiar w/ the term. Basicaly it is laws bassed in racism heavily discriminating against a group of people such as the refuges in this context, but originally against African Americans in U.S. history.
Something to think about.

douyang · Post by **douyang** » Mon May 01, 2006 11:49 pm

It wouldn't surprise me if there were Jim Crow type laws against the refugees, given that we're already told in episode 8 that they basically live in giant concentration camps surrounded by high fences and guarded by the GSDF, are shot or deported if they leave the refugee zone without authorization, and are generally denied the rights and economic opportunities enjoyed by Japanese citizens while still having to pay full taxes to support the government screwing them over.

This would also fit very well with traditional japanese xenophobia and bigotry against foreigners.

So virginity before cyberization is the final triggering factor for the individual eleven virus? I'm not sure what that means.

Tonks Kittygoth: Any cyborg can have sex organs installed and have sex, but they can't reproduce due to lack of genetic material.

Tonks_kittygoth · Post by **Tonks_kittygoth** » Tue May 02, 2006 12:02 am

Edit, opps read it wrong if you get this the first way Edit

So then it is a mater of having a expensive enough body then? Thats what I thought.

Yeh of course they cant have kids in the regular/current way, but they do mention having tissue stored for cloned kids in innocence w/ Harraway.

Tonks_kittygoth · Post by **Tonks_kittygoth** » Tue May 02, 2006 11:30 pm

Hey, what do you think of the conversation between Batou and the Major, about him pointing out that they follow her cause of her talent but are also able to back her up.

Why do you think she answered in that weird way. "I dont mind you talking to me that way."

douyang · Post by **douyang** » Wed May 03, 2006 9:41 pm

I think she might be saying she doesn't mind him questioning her judgement or treating her like she needs help from time to time. She's someone who takes the most dangerous jobs and is self-reliant.

Lightice · Post by **Lightice** » Thu May 04, 2006 12:55 am

That is Motoko's other trademark statement, repeated in most continuums, though it gets translated in various ways. My favourite is "I don't entirely dislike your sentiment". A roundabout way of saying that she appreciates the concern, even though she can make it on her own.

Yeh of course they cant have kids in the regular/current way, but they do mention having tissue stored for cloned kids in innocence w/ Harraway.

Make that eggs or sperm. Cloning is an issue that isn't discussed much in GitS. There are clones, apparently, but the legality and commonness of creating them is unclear.

Motoko2030 · Post by **Motoko2030** » Sat May 06, 2006 9:52 pm

I liked the line of dialogue between Aramaki and Batou where Aramaki is concerned about the Major's well being and Batou tells Aramaki that he mentioned her well being in his report to him, this is taken from the Ghost in the Shell 1995 movie.