in the shell Forum Index in the shell
Discussions about the many incarnations of Ghost in the Shell, philosophy and more!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

at what point does a person become another person?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    in the shell Forum Index -> The Philosophy
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Elmo_Redux



Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 154
Location: CLASSIFIED

PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:46 pm    Post subject: at what point does a person become another person? Reply with quote

This is a question that several famous philosophers have asked before in reference to typewriters, pipes and in one episode of only fools and horses a broom. But it gains another dimension when we talk about it in terms of people.

If I trim my nails and replace my hair with a wig am I the still the same person I was before? If I replace my limbs with prosthetics am I still the same person I was before? What if I go full cyborg with a fully artificial cyberbrain. My thoughts are still my own are they not, or does my new body shape those too? If it's done piece by piece, at what point of replacing parts of myself do I become a new person?

Is it the memories that I'd still retain that'd make me, me? what if I replaced those too?

Another mostly accurate way of looking at it is an organic example of the same process. Due to the way my cells die and are replaced by new cells there is no part of me at the age of four left in me now. I have even forgotten most(for arguments sake let's say 'all) of my memories from that time. Was that child me? what happened to that child is he now gone, dead?


Last edited by Elmo_Redux on Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Elmo_Redux



Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 154
Location: CLASSIFIED

PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

other people remember that child as me and every version of me right up to this point. So maybe we live through a period of time in the perceptions of others, and when we live in isolation we live only in moments.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
marto_motoko



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 536
Location: Ni'ihama

PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The individual "I" occurs only for the instance it is there. People are ever changing, and in a sense, despite being "you" throughout your whole life, you evolve, and you maintain the new you by replacing the things that previously defined you with new ones.

I feel a sense of being myself only when I'm by myself. When one person has anyone else around them, they only exist as a particle of themselves, because others easily shape us in different ways according to what is necessary to coexist with them.
_________________

Who are you? Who slips into my robot body and whispers to my ghost?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
GhostLine



Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 626
Location: "the net is vast and infinite..."

PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a hard question to answer depending on your world view. The Socratic view generally sees us as an eternal soul within a corruptible body. This is generally accepted in modern Christendom, while its Hebraic roots finds no differentiation between flesh and spirit. But also even ancient wisdom had spiritual prejudices set against those born deformed....
I once went to a Japanese Noh play in San Francisco where a deceased spirit was lost in limbo because a portion of his heart had been transplanted to save the life of another. It was still rooted to the living while it was bound for afterlife or reincarnation...this also would cause doom for the recipient of the heart. So while I think many westerners would not find a too strong of a collision between ethics and prosthetics...ramifications may be much stronger elsewhere.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
holdenmcclure



Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This question can only be answered with a purely subjective opinion. It is completely dependent on each individuals view of what defines yourself. Your persona both physically and mentally is constantly changing. Environmental influence is constantly altering your perception of the universe consciously and subconsciously. Basically what Marto said. Oh and sorry GhostLine but the "Spirit" and other religious theories are bull**** to me, but that is just my opinion. Vague religious analogies will only make this question more complicated.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
GhostLine



Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 626
Location: "the net is vast and infinite..."

PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holdenmcclure wrote:
This question can only be answered with a purely subjective opinion.... Oh and sorry GhostLine but the "Spirit" and other religious theories are bull**** to me, but that is just my opinion. Vague religious analogies will only make this question more complicated.

"...subjective opinion"...true dat. I always prefer objective bias myself...look at everything from all sides and present all sides...like several blend men describing to each other an elephant as they feel around it...their subjectiveness gathered together lead to a broader objectivity...like Greek philosophers who sat and argued in the academia. So in my ponderings, I'll throw things in I've gleaned old and new. I never stated any opinion, other than that one's answer depends on one's worldview...which is by definition "subjective opinion" within the framework of one's culture/ social universe. so if you deem anything as b.s., that's fine by me.
The religious analogies were just that my friend...they were meant serve as examples that one's worldview may not struggle at all with such questions while others won't break through. Christians and Western thinkers that see a separateness in body and spirit often see their "ghosts" disconnected from the shell and, for the most part, don't struggle with issue...while many other worldviews, remain in limbo.
Modern evolutionary/ non-theistic worldviews won't struggle with it either. Such things would have no meaning.
Here is another vague analogy...Hinduism, as personified through Shiva, the creator and destroyer of life, sees life moment by moment, a frame by frame event where the past moments are being obliterated while future moments are being created. Each second has a lifespan of its own, thus each individual is who he/she is at that moment. You would thus be disconnected from the person before...and the stages of your development...but you are disconnected only if you think and exist disconnected. But that's just another worldview.
But there is also memory to consider...or genes that get passed along...something survives within us and compels us to not go out into oblivion. Not to mention the overwhelming knowledge that crops up every now and again that we are each individuals and create ripples of cause effect wherever we present ourselves...and our environment interacts with us.
Honestly, it's a deep question to get around because it's a question about personal existence and our connectedness to our memories and experiences. How many licks does it take to get to the center of the Tootsie-Roll Pop? Just how deep is consciousness...skin deep?...within our genes? Or are we satellites signals, ghosts inhabiting a corruptible shell? To repeat myslf...one's answer entirely depend on one's worldview...now that serves as an opinion...so now i've lost all objectivity. an elephant is a long, noisy snake. haha
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BabyHipster



Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 19
Location: the vast depths of cyberspace

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not the "I" that I was nor am I the "I" that I will be. The only things connecting "I" to I are the past they share and the DNA that permeates them.
All else is in flux. That is what I think now, tomorrow's "I" might have a different opinion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Aoi



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 11
Location: Computer

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"At what point does a person become another person?"

Every second.

I suppose the most clear definition of "person" would be one of the following:
(a) brain (conglomerate of cells)
(b) mind (what the brain does)
(c) soul (in a mind/body independence theory)
(d) personality (traits which describe how you behave)

In (a), (b), and (d), a person never remains in existence but always changes. I don't believe (c) has any credibility and is an obsolete notion, especially in today's time. Anyway, (c) is ambiguous and wouldn't answer the question.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Individual Twelve



Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 64
Location: British Summer Time, where everyone gets an hour less sleep.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My twopenny's worth:

A person only becomes another person when their personality changes. Physical appearance may alter over time, and people will mature, but if the person has the same essential way of thinking, beliefs, personality et cetera, they are still the same person.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GhostLine



Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 626
Location: "the net is vast and infinite..."

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shellheads: What would your older self say to your younger self? Vice versa?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Elmo_Redux



Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 154
Location: CLASSIFIED

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'go for it you little bas***d'
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Individual Twelve



Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 64
Location: British Summer Time, where everyone gets an hour less sleep.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm...

To my younger self, "Join the ATC! We rule!"

To my older self, "Do you like Mario games?"
_________________
[BFCP] [LMFC] [BID] [TA] [TOSFU] [AFC] [DDT] [ATC]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AI



Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 34
Location: An Insane Asylum

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"At what point does a person become another person?"

Every second.

What if individuality does not exist because a person is constantly changing. Rather than their being some kind of 'Ghost' is an individual simply a tool used by human to identify each other and differentiate people from each other.

most of this theory is Motoko's point of view in Ghost in the Shell
_________________
[MKFC] [BFC] [TTAASI] [LDU] [LMFC]
"Who can gaze into the mirror without becoming evil? A mirror does not reflect evil, but creates it."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Epiphany



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 260
Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhostLine wrote:
Shellheads: What would your older self say to your younger self? Vice versa?



Older to Younger: Don't drive your Dads Vette in the rain Embarassed
Older to Younger Again: It won't matter in the future

Younger to Older: Remember. You once knew how to play Laughing
Younger to Older Again: Nothing is that serious Crying or Very sad
_________________
The Hokie Pokie "IS" what it's all About.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ghost Without A Shell



Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Posts: 10
Location: The net

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elmo_Redux wrote:
other people remember that child as me and every version of me right up to this point. So maybe we live through a period of time in the perceptions of others, and when we live in isolation we live only in moments.


I like that viewpoint.

Personally I believe a person becomes another when they leave their person behind.


Old to young:Listen to your ghost when it whispers my boy
young to old: Keep your shell strong like an elephant in the forest.
_________________
I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes


Last edited by Ghost Without A Shell on Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    in the shell Forum Index -> The Philosophy All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group