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I need help to find my path...
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Saito



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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Location: The chopper you never saw, behind the gun you never heard, about to fire the shot you never expected

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:15 pm    Post subject: I need help to find my path... Reply with quote

OK I have a fairly ugly confession to make, but I need to out it before I give you guys the wrong impression. I'm not a liar, so I can't gloss over it...

In all honesty I don't dig quite a lot of Manga/Anime, something about it just doesn't appeal to me. I watched a clip on another forum from Martian Successor Nadesco the other day and just cringed. If I needed a billboard example of what kinda of Anime I don't really like, that clip was like it in a bottle. Don't ask me why, but... just... no. A lot of what I've seen on TV might have appealed to me 10 or 12 years ago, but now it just seems shallow and childish. I admit I probably wasn't following the plot at the time, and you could easily mistake something like EVA (in the early episodes, maybe) for the same if you didn't understand the story, but there's something about the whole thing that sinks the ship before she even leaves port, if you can understand my analogy.

What bugs me is I can't bring myself to watch any Anime now. People keep recommending stuff to me, in good faith, but I never seem to bite because I'm afraid of falling onto another one of 'those' types of Anime. Its sad to say but if I found 'another EVA' I wouldn't bother with it I don't think. EVA was great, I consider it a masterpiece of mind manipulation, and the way it is told could be done no other way and still worked, but that style's not really my bag.

I'm not exactly fanatical about the stereotypical Anime animation style, in fact I'd go as far as to say the style GiTS is done in appeals in part to me for not being like that. I'm not really into the somewhat insane plot lines either.

So in short this is kinda of a cry for help from a very frustrated brain. If I give you some examples of non anime stuff I enjoy can you point me in the right direction.

For example I like:
The Matrix - yes the sequels were lame, but the story behind the whole trilogy captured my imagination, and got my mind ticking, even if the actual films were a bit dodgy (I blame Hollywood for molesting a perfectly good story).

Dune - I hate reading. I'm not very good at it and it make my head hurt (literally). One of the few books I read, with utter devotion, was Dune. Frank Herbert was a genius, without doubt. The film version was also epic and very beautiful. Anyone with a Sci-Fi bent should explore Dune. It's amazing.

2001: a space odyssey/2010 - I also read both these works by Arthur C Clarke. Sci-Fi doesn't get anymore reality based than this. If anything it was almost too exacting. Clarke's wrks can be a bit clinical at times, but overall they are work reading. The film of 2001 is, of course, one of film's all-time masterpieces, the film version of 2010 was less so but still not bad.

Deus-Ex - Few games I've ever played have ever grabbed my attention quite as well as Deus Ex. A wonderfully convoluted and winding plot, combined with what at the time was ground-breaking gameplay made it an instant Classic. The sequel was really nice to look at, but the plot felt a little songy to me. I hope the third one that is rumored to be in the works (a prequel?) redeems itself.

Star Wars - Yes, yes, I know. Another example of a great original (in this case trilogy) and Hollywood (or maybe it was Lucas) ruining the follow on (in this case, the prequels). There is however a great deal outside the movies. I personally have more of a soft spot for the Old Republic timeline used in the KotOR RPG games. The sheer vastness and depth of the Star Wars universe makes it very immersive if you like that.


Combine those with GiTS and you get my mind map for storys I like.

So is there any hope for me in the world of Japanese animation and the like? Or am I destined to sit outside in the cold waiting for a new GiTS volume to turn up?
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Epiphany



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 260
Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW Shocked

I agree with you on Dune. Though I do think the book far outshines the movie.

If you haven't seen Appleseed you would probably like that. If not for the story. Just for the beauty of the artwork.

I found the Matrix only fair. The sequals were kinda lame and seemed to talk down to you.

Have you watched any Full Metal, It is a very ingrossing story.

Starwars to me was kinda lame. But in fairness the state of the art in CGI had long since passed it by before I saw it.

Right now I'm addicted to Death Note. No space fights of swords but a very unique story with some very good characters

So of the stuff I like is kind of odd. Trinity Blood and Trigun to name a couple.

Its hard to recommend stuff to someone you don't know. Most of the good anime web sites have at least a preview or trailer
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Saito



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epiphany wrote:
WOW Shocked
I agree with you on Dune. Though I do think the book far outshines the movie.


It did, and the film was fantastic IMHO, so that places the book just left of I don't know where Wink

Epiphany wrote:

If you haven't seen Appleseed you would probably like that. If not for the story. Just for the beauty of the artwork.


Have the CG version and I have to say you are spot on about the style thing - I really love it even though the actual story is a bit flimsy in places (I gather this is more the movie script's fault than anything else).

Epiphany wrote:

I found the Matrix only fair. The sequals were kinda lame and seemed to talk down to you.


Like I said to Sylphi in another thread, the Matrix as a trilogy is crap if you take it at face value. The first film was pretty good, in fact it was really good. The sequels were lame, and like you said were way to condescending. It was like they wanted a wider audience so had to explain everything like you were some kind of dumb ox. The secret is to take the story, and the process of the films and to think outside the films. This was something the Bros wanted people to do, to think about what the films were about and what they represented and not the script and the film as it was shown on screen. Understanding the metaphors and the references, like many films, is the key to truly appreciating the Matrix.

Epiphany wrote:

Have you watched any Full Metal, It is a very ingrossing story.


You mean FMA? No I haven't, although it's something that's kinda caught my eye a couple of times.

Epiphany wrote:

Starwars to me was kinda lame. But in fairness the state of the art in CGI had long since passed it by before I saw it.


If you try to take in the story rather than the actual visuals of the film then it does work a lot better in the original 3 movies. The prequels weren't nearly as good story or plot-wise, but they had a bigger visual impact. They kinda reminded me of those computer games you play that look stunning but are totally soulless and have no plot Sad

Like I said the Old Republic era (10,000 years prior to episode 4) is a lot more interesting to me as it explains a lot about things that barely get mentioned in the movie time frame. It's kinda like fanfic on acid I guess but it's considered canon and has a ton of official story matter around it so you can't exactly argue with it Razz

Epiphany wrote:

Right now I'm addicted to Death Note. No space fights of swords but a very unique story with some very good characters


I noticed a post about that elsewhere here. I will be sure to look it up.

Epiphany wrote:

So of the stuff I like is kind of odd. Trinity Blood and Trigun to name a couple.


I looked Trigun up on a lazy Sunday afternoon and actually it sounded kinda cool, in an odd way. It was a fairly mature (there's that important footnote again, maturity) sounding while being kinda whacky and fun at the same time.

Epiphany wrote:

Its hard to recommend stuff to someone you don't know. Most of the good anime web sites have at least a preview or trailer


I can appreciate that, which I why I gave something for you guys to chew on. I know I'm possibly being a bit lame here but I feel like I'm missing out on somethings that I';d actually like when my brain is withdrawing away from all of it without asking.
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simon's ghost



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: Montréal area, Québec, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well... Saito, I can REALLY relate to what you are saying about anime in general. As time went by, I learned to treat it like any other artform. I don't go for it just because it's anime. I go for it if it's good, period. in fact, anime is becoming more and more like the rest of the entertainment industry. Mass production is key, so quality is diluted. Like music and cinema, a LOT of it is just pre-packaged crap made according to a successful receipe. I actually find most anime to be offensive and intellectually insulting.

That being said, I will go with the flow and say I also enjoyed Trigun a lot, even if some parts are uselessly stretched and repeated. It's a kind of humor I can appreciate and the director does a really good job of making seemless the drastic cuts between dramatic and comedic moments.

I truly enjoyed the style of Gunslinger Girls. The calm mood in which all the violence takes place is unsettling and most of the time is spent on character development.

Eva... well Eva was just that combination of a little bit of everything. It did have the flaws of any other series, but had the depth many series lack.

Serial Experiment: Lain was a treat for the mind although it didn't have any action.

Akira seems to have been left out... Hello people!!!

I must say I like anime movies a lot more than series. I just feel like series often offer more of the same episode after episode and it tends to kill my interest. "oh you mean another foe that seems unbeatable? surely the heroes will find a way or get a new weapon/power... more insight into the characters or the context please!"

Perfect Blue was good, so was Jin-Roh. Grave of the Fireflies was incredible though very difficult to watch at times. The Miyazaki stuff is pretty good too. Steamboy didn't have innovative stroytelling but wow...

One thing is for sure, I DO go for anime because I expect something different out of it, something I wont find in any other type of media. Different plots, different storytelling, different style, different topics, stuff there isn't anywhere else, stuff that would be unthinkable in live action or in american or european animation. Like I said, I'm not a big anime fan, but anime has stuff there is nowhere else.
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GhostLine



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

honestly, your feelings echo mine concerning any genre of film...i'm usually more irritated than anything...i'm starting to be more interested in documentaries or subjects based on actual events/ issues.

as for DUNE...love it! i love paul atreides and his internal struggle with his "terrible purpose". I also prefer the book, but find myself visualizing the characters and costumes according to the film.
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Epiphany



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhostLine wrote:

as for DUNE...love it! i love paul atreides and his internal struggle with his "terrible purpose". I also prefer the book, but find myself visualizing the characters and costumes according to the film.


I'm the same way with the "Lord of the Rings". As much as I liked the movies. I have to admit that when I read the books now it's with the images of the movie characters and scenary in my mind. I liked the books better when I visualized everything for myself.
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Jeff Georgeson
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Joined: 23 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simon's ghost wrote:
Well... Saito, I can REALLY relate to what you are saying about anime in general. As time went by, I learned to treat it like any other artform. I don't go for it just because it's anime. I go for it if it's good, period.


I agree. In fact, there was a long time when I didn't watch much anime at all--the "newness" of the experience wore off and I began to look at it as I would anything else. The one thing I do still love about anime generally is that you can usually find something out there that hasn't been Hollywoodized or Disneyized beyond recognition.

Perfect Blue and anything else by Satoshi Kon (Tokyo Godfathers, Millennium Actress--haven't seen Paprika yet) are excellent film choices. Lain and Boogiepop Phantom are good series--they don't have that repetitiveness I find irritating in several popular series. And Akira is a classic for a good reason.

Hmmmm ... can't think of anything else at the moment.
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Epiphany



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
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Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff Georgeson wrote:
simon's ghost wrote:
Well... Saito, I can REALLY relate to what you are saying about anime in general. As time went by, I learned to treat it like any other artform. I don't go for it just because it's anime. I go for it if it's good, period.


I agree. In fact, there was a long time when I didn't watch much anime at all--the "newness" of the experience wore off and I began to look at it as I would anything else. The one thing I do still love about anime generally is that you can usually find something out there that hasn't been Hollywoodized or Disneyized beyond recognition.

Perfect Blue and anything else by Satoshi Kon (Tokyo Godfathers, Millennium Actress--haven't seen Paprika yet) are excellent film choices. Lain and Boogiepop Phantom are good series--they don't have that repetitiveness I find irritating in several popular series. And Akira is a classic for a good reason.

Hmmmm ... can't think of anything else at the moment.


I think the biggest problem is Anime proved to be a money maker and a lot of people started pushing it out trying to capitolize on it. They use half writen storys that are obvious rip-offs of other peoples work and do very little in the way of character creation. A few people set the bar so high that most of the jump in it for money people can't come close. Some of them should be shot for using the word "Anime" in there product discription. Blue hair and big eyes don't mean "Anime" Most of them should be considered cartoons. So you end up having to weed through tons of $hit to find an ounce of quality. GITS, Appleseed, Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, FMA and Wolf's Riegn and a few others set a very high standard in both art work and imagination. Now like any successful art form....Accountants are running the show
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marto_motoko



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate most animes, yet some of my favourite movies/shows are from anime, so I understand what you mean.


Here's what I'll recommend, and just google a trailer or so on youtube of each, because I'm really in a hurry, but feel I should try and help by listing a few.

Elfen Lied
Ergo Proxy
Jin-Roh (an excellent Oshii film, the guy that made the GitS movies)
Karas - there's two. Revelations, and....forgot the name of the other.
Deathnote
Gantz - screwed up, but great insight into the human psyche in terms of id
Serial Experiment Lain



Aaaand that's some of my favourites.
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Saito



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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Location: The chopper you never saw, behind the gun you never heard, about to fire the shot you never expected

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to thank all of you for your wonderful thoughts and suggestions. I now feel as if I'm actually thinking about it 'the right way up'. What set me off on this spiral of delusion was that on the other forum I mentioned they have an Anime section, where a load of people (mostly kids, I suspect) are raving on about Anime, posting clips and stuff and pretty much all of it is, as Epiphany so aptly put it, tons of $hit Razz

I will look through your recommendations and see if I can find a few somethings that looks cool and go from there Smile
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simon's ghost



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saito wrote:
I now feel as if I'm actually thinking about it 'the right way up'.


See? This is why we keep coming back... This forum just keeps gathering people with something in common: the love of a well-crafted, intelligent piece of artwork, namely Ghost in the Shell, but also others.
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Saito



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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Location: The chopper you never saw, behind the gun you never heard, about to fire the shot you never expected

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realised this as soon as I read the threads on the forum, and now everyone has come back I appreciate even more that this is a great forum with great people Smile

*puts on 'Best Behaviour' hat*

They always say 'a problem shared is a problem halved'. Thanks for bearing half my problem, and providing useful comments. I truly feel at home in a place with kind, like minded people.
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holdenmcclure



Joined: 22 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somebody help me out here. I watched "Elfen Lied"'s first episode and I don't understand the appeal.
It began with a very idealistically designed girl with what looked to be cat-ears, completely naked, and didn't look to be over 17. My first impression was that I must have accidentally been linked to soft-core furry hentai porn.
I verified that it was indeed "Elfen Lied", so I continued regardless of my first impression, I was desperately trying to be as open-minded as possible.
So as I continued the show, hoping desperately that nobody would see what I was watching for the sake of difficult explanations, I noticed that this same girl was now locked in a very specialized containment facility, wearing a helmet. She then spontaneously breaks out and starts decapitating prison guards and stopping bullets in a manner that would make the Wachowski brothers learn the meaning of Karma.
Ignoring the incredible onslaught of cliches' and unexplained events taking place, I continued to watch the embodiment of male fan-service remove various limbs from guards while they fruitlessly unloaded clips of ammunition and soiled their pants.
She continued to walk down the hall, seemingly undaunted by the fact that 3 inches of metal obscured her eyesight, leaving bloody hand prints over the walls. Leading me to believe this vague form of telekinesis was a giant invisible hand or something.
Meanwhile they decide to cut to some interns talking about something I was far too confused to read. Then one gets decapitated... Shocker.... Anyways, naked lady walks out the door and the head guy whips out a gun that a giant invisible hand can't even stop. Of course it doesn't penetrate the metal and simultaneously break her neck and puncture her skull, it hits the eject helmet button and she walks away with a blood stain on her cheek.
Then they cut to some kids who find each other and have a jolly reunion that I'm supposed to care about for some reason, meanwhile naked lady swims across the ocean and appears in front of them. Apparently the sniper bullet gave her brain damage and became convinced she was a pokemon named "Nyu". Probably the most unlikely pokemon in the history of existence.
So naturally they did what anyone would do if an underage naked girl with cat ears swam across the ocean in front of them. Live with her in a vacant house that they somehow acquired. So then they cut to some scenes that are so narrowly censored you'd swear Nyu didn't have a vagina. So Nyu gets home, pisses on the floor, giving the artists an excuse to draw the other girl naked, and then Nyu breaks a precious family heirloom.
Then they cut to some guy who seems to have had a troubled childhood shooting targets, he complains that his targets don't bleed so the commander tells him to go kill a little girl. The-end.

I know that perspective is a pretty damning opinion, and at times I may have sounded a little vulgar, but that's the impression I got from the show. Somebody PLEASE tell me if this show is going to be any different or at least make some sense. I don't mean to be offensive to fans or anything, thats just MY impression. Sorry if it was a little long. Embarassed
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Saito



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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Location: The chopper you never saw, behind the gun you never heard, about to fire the shot you never expected

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to my thread, 10 points for the effective show stopping hijack Wink

This sounds like another one of those Anime's I just don't dig.
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holdenmcclure



Joined: 22 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry lol, I couldn't find a better place to put it.
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