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MMI Visions and Entities

 
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Gillsing



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 109
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:37 pm    Post subject: MMI Visions and Entities Reply with quote

Oh, look at my mighty repost of three posts which I kept in a text file, safely tucked away on my own harddrive. I'm putting them here rather than in the philosophy section (where they could be found last time) since these posts are mainly about deciphering what's going on and not so much about what it means in a philosophical sense. Or maybe it's just that I never understood any of the actual philosophy that was mentioned as an explanation for some of the visions. Oh well, here goes:

(And the crash mentioned below is of course the one before this last one.) Shocked
Due to marto_motoko spurring me into action before the crash, I reread the end of MMI with the intent of understanding/deciphering what was up with the entities Antares and Spica, and also the visions that Tamaki Tamai had.

On page 8 Shirow shows "a conceptual representation of the largest e-brain network Motoko can percieve", which includes three 'North Stars' which Motoko is somehow prevented from approaching. One of these giant shining lights is "about twenty percent smaller and of a different nature". My guess is that the smaller light is the original Motoko Kusanagi, while the other two are Antares and Spica. I'm not sure if these lights are actual representations of these entities, or merely channels for connections, or some kind of imprint or override installed into Motoko Aramaki's e-brain. With names such as Spica (Original element-Light) and Antares (Darkness-Hanging-Child), at least these two entities could very well be some kind of control systems for Motoko Aramaki, perhaps one for curiosity and another for conservation. But given that they're part of a large e-brain network I suppose that they could very well be actual entities, and that they have enough power over Motoko Aramaki to prevent her from coming closer against their wishes. They certainly never seem to consider themselves parts of Motoko Aramaki, and instead treat her as someone they could scrap if they wanted to. And Antares also appears to exist in the real world, which is another argument for her being more than a part of Motoko Aramaki's e-brain.

After Antares and Spica subdues Motoko Aramaki she is somehow contacted by Tamaki Tamai, who presents the three North Stars to her as much smaller lights. Motoko chooses to investigate the lights, and ends up in contact with the original Motoko Kusanagi. Whether this contact comes about as a result of Motoko Aramaki's choice is questionable though, because right before, or at the same time, Antares and Spica discovered that she had downloaded a file from Professor Rahampol which turned out to be a "highly intelligent silicon-based life-form". So perhaps it was Motoko Kusanagi who initiated the contact with Motoko Aramaki in order to discuss this important find. In any case, they both agree to meet and "handle" this new life-form together.

And I suppose that this is where Tamaki Tamai's visions at the end comes in. The "sacred pillar" or "tree" appears to be the new life-form, and the "asymmetrical shadow of herself" (amanojaku , "contrarian demon") appears to be the other Motoko, which from Tamaki Tamai's point of view ought to be the original Motoko Kusanagi. The three-legged crow with three eyes appears to be some kind of representation of what happens, and the three eyes appears to be the three North Stars. When Motoko Aramaki investigated the small North Stars presented by Tamaki Tamai, there were black feathers falling from the black vortex emanating from the stars, so clearly some kind of connection between them and the crow is implied. But what the connection really is I don't know. Perhaps it means that Antares and Spica are in on the deal with the new life-form, or could it be that they were never represented by the North Stars in the first place?

There is another threesome involved in the visions which might provide the legs for the crow, namely the Jewel (religion, on page 289 Tamaki Tamai refers to the Puppeteer as "an information deity"), the Sword (before the forums crashed someone posted that "Kusanagi" is the name of a famous Japanese sword) and the Mirror (the two Motokos discussed how the new life-form would mirror human life). But this is merely me grabbing what I could find. According to the explanation Chief Aramaki is given, the Jewel, the Sword and the Mirror represent different time periods, and not the Puppeteer, Motoko Kusanagi and the new life-form. Towards the end the whole vision appears to turn into a revolving asymmetrical mirror, and perhaps that is the only time the new life-form is represented by a mirror? Because I'm pretty sure that at least that mirror is the new life-form.

In any case, it seems pretty obvious that whatever the symbolism is, Tamaki Tamaki is having visions of the two Motokos growing their new highly intelligent silicon-based life-form. Which is more than I understood the first time I read MMI. :)

Here's the second post, apparently in reply to previous posts which are forever lost to us:

Jeni Nielsen wrote:
Mokto Aramaki

Heh, while typing these posts I pretty much consistently mistype Motoko as "Motko". Bloody hard name to type in a hurry. ;)

marto_motoko wrote:
I think that the new lifeform was simply Motoko Kusanagi's fusion with the puppet master. The body Aramaki saw that she identified as Kusanagi could have simply been a shell.

But why would the blueprint for the lifeform exist as a file then? How could Kusanagi and the Puppeteer possibly even make a blueprint out of their own existence? And why would Antares and Spica act like they didn't know what it was?

marto_motoko wrote:
I mean, its essentially possible that Antares and Spica are merely the creations of Kusanagi.

Yeah, I pretty much assumed that both Antares and Spica were creations of Motoko Kusanagi, although now that I've realised that the e-brain network is the world network and not just Motoko Aramaki's own e-brain, I'm not so sure anymore. Granted that they seem to act as parts of Kusanagi, but if Antares really is some sort of channeler, which is implied when Motoko Aramaki speaks to her on the plane, then I wonder how Kusanagi managed to create a channeler. Because I figured that channelers were so rare that they only came about as random genetic mutations. Or perhaps Antares' ability to "see" is granted to her due to her connection to one or both of the Motokos? Perhaps her physical form is merely a decot for her virtual existence? Motoko Aramaki does consider that Antares is Kusanagi and also a fake channeler, but then she changes her mind ("No...that can't be.")

Now that I read those pages again I found a single word balloon on page 253 which seems to explain what Spica and Antares really are: "The enemy bears a close resemblance to a multigate-type neuro AI...appears to be a bicameral brain-mode conversion." (That cursed technobabble! Mad ) I guess that makes them the Puppeteer half of Kusanagi and the Puppeteer, and they probably only showed up because Motoko Aramaki was threatening (or at least messing around with) Kusanagi's physical body.

marto_motoko wrote:
I think that Kusanagi had become this higher being. For crying out loud...how did the lady reside anywhere? why is no one aware of her? She doesn't seem to have a body, a ghost, what is she? A floating little universe all her own? Makes you wonder...

As I understood it, Kusanagi resides in the orbiting body deposit Sleeping Universe together with a lot of other VIPs, including the president of Poseidon Industrial (she's apparently playing some kind of chessgame with him in their "medium-large virtual sensory space"). No one is aware of her because it's a "secret club" (page 242), and I doubt that anyone but another Motoko could hack into it.

When Motoko Aramaki manages to disconnect Kusanagi's body from the decantoncale, it reduces "enemy response" by 72% (more informational technobabble Wink ), so I assume that the body meant something and wasn't just an empty shell. And since this is when Antares and Spica make their appearances, it's difficult to tell if Kusanagi's connection to the decatoncale is restored while Motoko Aramaki is busy with the other two entities. Kusanagi also admits that her proximity to the Hubble 3 telescope mirror matters (page 274), so that's another indication that her body matters. (Motoko Aramaki planned to use the mirror on the telescope to fry the power-generator panels of the Sleeping Universe. A plan formed as far back as page 237.) I suppose that Kusanagi could've been thinking primarily about all the other bodies on that space station, or trying to keep Motoko Aramaki believing that Kusanagi's empty shell was Kusanagi herself. But that's a lot of speculation to make her body an empty shell when nothing really indicates that it is.

marto_motoko wrote:
My thought is that Kusanagi was simply introducing her offspring to the light that she herself faced through the fussion with 2501. Doesn't that make sence? Spica and Antares simply were given that light before Aramaki, therefore they knew much more, and had a lot more knowledge as seen.

I suppose that could be one explanation. Although it was Tamaki Tamai who introduced those lights to Motoko Aramaki, and she doesn't appear to be under Kusanagi's control or guidance, even though it appears that they have some sort of psychic connection right before Tamaki Tamai has her visions. Hm, since Tamaki Tamai has those visions right after communicating with the original Motoko, I suppose that the amonjaku could be Motoko Aramaki after all. I guess I just ignored that part because I couldn't understand it. :oops:

And then again, perhaps the whole thing is just Tamaki Tamai's visions, and not communication at all, even though it seems like it.

Here's the third post, again in reply to previous posts which are forever lost to us:

marto_motoko wrote:
And I'm sure if was Tamai in the image due to the odd little orange headset that she wears both in her dragon-spiritual form, and in the image of her as a kid.

Ah, thank you. I've been labouring under the misconception that it was Motoko, and that the tanuki floating about is some kind of persitent memory from her childhood. But now I understand how Motoko could be talking to herself in that scene. That is, she isn't talking to herself, she's talking to Tamai.

Also, I assume that it is the original Motoko Kusanagi she meets as a child, since Kusanagi is the name of the sword, and Motoko Aramaki seems to favour another haircolour and hairstyle. Not to mention that as the communication continues, Tamaki Tamai definitely seems to be talking to the original Motoko.

And maybe Antares and Spica are earlier isotypes who created Motoko 11, but why would they be recognized as a single (but bicameral - I assume this means something like "two images") neuro AI? I'll grant that calling them "the Puppeteer half" was probably a bit too simplistic. Perhaps they are indeed earlier or later isotypes, but of the virtual kind. Some kind of safetymeasure created by Motoko Kusanagi to handle things when one of the isotypes pose problems? Yeah, I'm going back there again. ;)

Or rather, are they the parts of Motoko Kusanagi which resides not in her human cyberbrain, but in the decatoncale? I could see how the Kusanagi/Puppeteer entity wouldn't necessarily be confined to a single neurosystem, but rather spread itself into a second one. This would explain why they shine so brightly in the e-brain network while Kusanagi does not. Assuming that they are still represented by the North Stars, a couple of entities who reside in the very network might shine brighter than one who is merely connected to it. It might also explain why the "enemy response" was dropped by only 72% and not 100% when Kusanagi was disconnected.

Good point about Millenium, she's referred to as No. 20 when Motoko Aramaki is referred to as No. 11 (shortly before they subdue her), so I guess she'd be a later isotype. But I never paid a lot of attention to her since she doesn't seem to be more than another obstacle for Motoko Aramaki, who apparently manages to take over her brain near the end.

Today, 26 November 2005:
Oops. I must've neglected to save all the posts in that old thread, because I remember looking up the word "bicameral" and finding out that it means "two chambers" not "two images". Right now I don't recall exactly how that changed my reasoning, but I think that it indicated that the bicameral AI was indeed Motoko Kusanagi's brain plus the virtual part in the decatoncale.
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Statik



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: MMI Visions and Entities Reply with quote

Gillsing wrote:
"The enemy bears a close resemblance to a multigate-type neuro AI...appears to be a bicameral brain-mode conversion." (That cursed technobabble! Mad )


Just throwing this out there, but the bicameral mind is a theory that back in the day (ie 3 to 4 thousand years ago) the human conscious experience was quite different from today. That the two halfs (hense bicameral = two houses) of the brain were less integrated than they are today (i suppose this theory suggests that the corpus collosum was at that time far less developed). Thus the human experience of conscienceness was more or less one half of the brain "speaking" from a commanding standpoint, and the other half "listening". Thus bicameral man was constantly in a state akin to schitzophrenia. The speaking half was connotated by the listening half as a god (thus, according to the contriversal theory, the origin of religon). Can't say I really buy much of the theory, but it certainly is interesting.

more info about this is in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in_the_Breakdown_of_the_Bicameral_Mind

also, the subject is discussed speculatively at great length in the really fun 90's cyberpunk book Snow Crash.
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Gillsing



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 109
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I don't know what to think of this. On the one hand, Motoko could be in charge of the Puppeteer in a god-man way (or would the Puppeteer be the god part?), but on the other hand the Puppeteer consists of information, so there shouldn't be any primitive obstacles to merging the two. And if the 'bicameral mind' wouldn't point to Motoko and the Puppeteer I wouldn't know where to begin.

Thanks for the interesting link. And Snow Crash is a commonly recommended book, so maybe I should read it sometime. Smile
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sord



Joined: 31 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so much reading Shocked

anyways, here is my take.

as far as the crow, the three stars, and the tree, they are part of folklore and the full book has side notes on it. For more onformation it suggests the book "Kojiki" which is basically Chronicles of Ancient Times loosely translated. I've never saught the book myself, and it might be japanese only since it is japanese folklore after all.

all the motoko's are isotopes, except of course for the one in the green fluid tank and the one Tamai is talking to later and Motoko's having flashbacks. The isotopes themselves are either 1 of 2 things.

They are the "offspring" as the puppetmaster put it of Motoko and the puppetmaster (see first movie.)

or

It mentions a lot about Motoko's instability, and how at the begining of the book it seems to suggest she has reached it. This leads me to think since Motoko merged with the puppetmaster, and thus gains access to all the net, the data gathered and emotions of what they witnessed where to conflicting to be kept in one place, thus the isotopes witch are all portions of Motoko. Each isotope has a core personlality, which is suggested by Antares and Spicas co-line "In other words, sort of an eleventh level isotope... ...the type that ignores whatever cannot be scientifically verified, mm?" This would also keep the original Motoko/Puppetmaster herself instead of being troubled by all these other phycies and ghosts. I believe this theory has more legitimacy.

There is also the issue of the isotopes merging, instead of spreading, or simply destroying, or "wiping," an unwanted one. It basically appears that they aren't sure how to complete full stability, and are still trying to figure out ways to acomplish it.

The Motoko that climbs the tree with her Daemon however is the actual Motoko herself, she is basically the trigger into the next millenium, the "mirror millenium" as the body she is put into is made based on the data of Rahampol (remember the data Spicas found in Motoko, and the professor's name can be found at the very end of comic 2)

It should also be noted that while yes Motoko did become a digital sentient living being after mergering with the puppetmaster, the puppetmaster's awareness of itself came about by chance, not by means of already knowing how to creat a digital life form from the start, hence the importance of Rahampol's data as this can now be done.

Another note, the reason this is the mirror millenium is because of the new digital lifeform that's going to come out. It is almost human in every way, but diffrent (digital based,) just like a reflection. Even a reflection is not the exact you since your image is flipped. And since the Motoko body that's created is the first one, she is of course the trigger to start the mirror millenium.

Yet another note, the definitions of ther millenias themselves:

Jewel millenium- religion reigns supreme
Sword millenium- science and technology supreme
Mirror millenium- unknown, though we can guess as i have based on the dramatic irony Shirow uses.
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Gillsing



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 109
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sord wrote:
... the data gathered and emotions of what they witnessed where to conflicting to be kept in one place, thus the isotopes witch are all portions of Motoko.
...

This would also keep the original Motoko/Puppetmaster herself instead of being troubled by all these other phycies and ghosts.

Aha. I did consider the possibility of Spica and Antares being parts of Kusanagi, but not that it would be in order to stay herself due to the conflicting information on the net. Interesting. Smile
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Jeni Nielsen



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sord wrote:
so much reading Shocked

anyways, here is my take.

as far as the crow, the three stars, and the tree, they are part of folklore and the full book has side notes on it. For more onformation it suggests the book "Kojiki" which is basically Chronicles of Ancient Times loosely translated. I've never saught the book myself, and it might be japanese only since it is japanese folklore after all.


Pops her head into the topic. There are translations to English of the Kojiki but as to their completeness I'm pretty sure that they are not fully done... I might be confusing this with the Konjaku monogatari, (which I know has never been completely translated), but I have a good feeling that most translators would only do some and not all of the stories.
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Qwuff



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. So does this mean that Motoko Aramaki and Kusanagi are different people? I thought they were the same, at least to a point. Could someone clear this up for me? I feel stupid for not understanding. Embarassed Also, what did Tamai mean when she was talked about Motoko 'choosing death'?
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Gillsing



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, they are different people, but I'd say that the reader is led to believe that Motoko Aramaki is really Motoko Kusanagi with a new name at the beginning of MMI. It is then revealed later on that Motoko Aramaki is 'just' a version of Kusanagi, and not the original. Plot twist. :)

About 'choosing death', are you thinking of page 289? I'm not sure what Tamai means there. She could be referring to the fact that Motoko Kusanagi sometimes killed people in her job, or that she fused with the Puppeteer who sought life and death, or rather the ability to evolve. That is, having their offspring evolve, I guess.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Death, because they are racing towards the limits of evolution, the point at which the universe expands as far as it can and then crystalises/"grows cold" (remember that model from the very beginning).

It's obvious, like when you are desperate to grow up and try to do so as quickly as posible, but ultimately by doing so you are just rushing towards completing your life, getting old and dying (I take the laidback approach to life- no rushing through it for me! That's why even if I had a good idea, I don't plan to carry it until I am good and ready... which is probably ten years down the line at least Smile There's too much to do before I start to live my life- let GitS be a message to you!) Rolling Eyes
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marto_motoko



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A simple crystalization leading to a state we call 'death'. The universe in its most complex form is the final form. A form no further capable of change. The crystal-form mentioned in the opening, which is also probably the near-view that Kusanagi was capable of reaching. Aramaki, completely unaware of it, only views it as 'the two lights, and one 20% smaller light.


Spica and Antares both being the same person, with two personalities, standpoints, and approaches of things. The earlier divisions and bicameral separations of the essentially super-enhanced and far-too-advanced for modern man Kusanagi.

If that's the way one would approach this, then it's simple: Kusanagi created offsprings, creating her own blueprints of her existence, since her awareness of who 'she is' is ultimately beyond our own understanding, therefore she's capable of viewing people, and 'one's self' as a brand new standpoint. Another point in the expansion of DNA.

I guess her sight at this world would be similar to the saying. 'This world an its cities are nothing but expansions of man's DNA. All branching from what is allready within the human mind and capability' (I've heard many versions of this saying.) Then to her, her own existence, would be another blueprint to add on. No diferent than any other. Her offsprings, simply different particles within the blueprint, such as Antares, and Spica.


The only part still confusing me is - Tamai's relationship to Kusanagi, the reason Tamai chooses a Tanuki (Tanuki Tanui and Tamaki Tamai Sound extremely similar.) as her virtual form, and why a girl with dragon design to her. What was her relationship with Kusanagi when they were kids?


Sorry if my opinion isn't quite as good on the Kusanagi issue.

MM
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