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Why do you watch Ghost in the Shell: SAC?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watch it because I love the theme of it and it's complexity. The theme is like Phillip K.Dick and William Gibson in an opium den while on crack to create this magical magical world.

It's complexity is also amazing. No other cartoon has ever like put me on the edge of my seat make me almost have an aneurism and a seizure because of it's complexity yet my interest sustains.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

couldnt have put it better myself don Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I first saw the GiTS movie way back when it first released in the UK, must have been 1995 or 6, on VHS. Someone at school thrust it into my hand and told me I had to see it. Although I didn't totally get it at the time it stuck in my mind.

Many years later I got heavily into The Matrix and wound up on a great forum. GiTS was cited as a major influence on the Wachowski Bros, so I went back and watched it again. Having investigated the philosophy of The Matrix in some significant depth it instantly made total sense this time around. I could instantly see the influences and cross-references, but perhaps more significantly it set a seed in my mind that I hadn't had since I first saw The Martix. It's a hard thing to describe, I'm sure many here are familiar with what I mean though, when something sticks in your head and the more you feed it with thought the more it grows.

Well eventually I decided I wanted more. I picked up the first Stand Alone Complex boxset when I was in London last year and watched it straight off the bat when I got home. It took me about 4 nights to get through it all but man I was totally sold. So much story, so much to think on, and some flat out cool action. I recently got the 2nd GiG boxset and went through it all again. I think I missed something vital at the end of the 2nd GiG though - it was probably just because just because I was tired and my brain switched off a couple of times. I dunno.

Anyway that's *how* I come to watch it. I watch it because it's good entertainment, it's mentally stimulating, it's full of great characters and scenarios, and overall it's well thought out and very deep. I've watched other Anime that has been good entertainment, others that really make you think (EVA anyone??), and some that have some other cool ideas on, but overall I just like SAC the most. It is the sort of stories that make my mind tick...
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LeoXiao



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the bump but there aren't many topics that aren't more than five months old.

I watched SAC during the summer when I had nothing to do, having watched the first and second movies(ehh, I thought they were ok back then)a couple years before. I was expecting lots of guns, the usual GITS philosophy about man/machine boundaries, and motoko with purple hair, but I didn't expect SAC to be much good.

I watched SAC 2ng Gig first(because I accidentally downloaded 2nd Gig before the first one), and I was amazed. The plot was awesome and complex, the characters were cool, and it just felt really... deep and philosophical. the amount of complexity is simply on a level that I can only begin to understand at this time.

I obviously watched the 1st Gig next, and I liked it just as much, but for different reasons. 2nd Gig seemed to deal more with the social/political aspects of SAC, and had a more militaristic feel to it(I love military stuff in anime), whereas the 1st Gig was more... well, it just didn't seem very much the same. I thought it had a better plot in some ways, especially at the end, and the way it actually probed at the existence of the Tachikomas was really interesting.

Now, having watched SSS (which was equally awesome), I had run out of SAC so I got Innocence and watched that with my friends. It was very different from any other GITS media, and I have to say I liked it a whole lot better the second time around.

I have yet to watch the 1995 movie again, but I'm annoyed that after that I will have "run out" of GITS.

Again, sorry for the bump.
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Saito



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeh, I know what you mean. It is kinda of irritating having to wait so long between installments but the best comes to those who wait, y'know ;)

If you want to branch out and explore GiTS further there's always the Manga, and I think also a few written books. I have the Manga book of the original 'Ghost in the Shell' story, and it is very interesting to see what parts they left out of the film. The Manga is actually more like SAC than the original film was and there is a lot more detail (as you'd expect) and a few references top characters that have since been seen in SAC. It's certainly an added insight into the GiTS story and the mind of Shirow.
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Purifying Flame of Justic



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of the manga, I'd also recommend to look into the first, plus the second one: Man Machine Interface , which explores new ground in comparison to the anime incarnations, focusing mainly on cyberwarfare with Motoko, and her offspring in the lead IIRC, rounding the story off with some nice philosophical musing on the further developing of life forms, centred around the Motokos' – good stuff ^^
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Saito



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, I'll have to get my paws on that one :)

Trying to stay vaguely on topic here I should also add to my reasons for watching GiTS in general that I'm a computer geek, and I am fascinated by the advance of technology and it's influence on mankind. To me the idea of cyberization is a logical step in the advance of man's interactions with machines. The moral, philosophical and psychological questions it generates only add to the interest and intrigue for me.
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Purifying Flame of Justic



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saito wrote:

Quote:
To me the idea of cyberization is a logical step in the advance of man's interactions with machines.


I think that a cyberization of humanity is a desirable and inevitable outcome, in the long run mind you. I however see possible dangers in speeding this progress up to fast. This though of course been represented in various mediums of more or less dystopian nature. I like the fluff behind the Joveian race in the pc game Eve Online: the second genesis.

”[…]Over the thousands of years since, the Jovians have experimented with every kind of genetic modification their technology allowed. As their powers grew, they began to believe they were capable of anything, and this led them into increasingly more bizarre mutations of their bodies and minds, a policy rigorously backed up by strict governmental control.
But one fateful moment in their history made them lose this control for a few generations, and the results were catastrophic. By this time the Jovians had begun interfering with their basic instincts, curbing their aggression and sexual instincts and cultivating strange new ones instead. Since the Shrouded Days, as the Jovians call their momentary social eclipse, they have been trying to put the pieces together again, but their DNA-structure has in many ways been damaged beyond repair. The consequence is the dreaded Jovian Disease. Genetic in nature, it is not infectious to other races, but among Jovians it causes a depression so deep and serious that the victim loses the will to live, and death results within a few days or weeks.”[…] http://www.eve-online.com/races/jove.asp

:D

For instance I don’t like the contemporary movement called transhumanism, or some of its spokespersons anyway. Among things, I find them way too enamoured with the natural sciences, that is to say the methodology it is governed by plus their applied and appraisal of it to spheres where it just wrecks reality imo. They’re just too fond of mathematical / logical / quantitatively thoughts streams, e.g. somewhat akin to the historical period of “ The Enlightenment”. Where scholars wanted to find and believed they could, a way to apply Newton’s accomplishments outside of the study of nature, yeah in that sense, as among things a framework for an ethical system.
I think there’s much to gained by having a interdisciplinary approach to the matters in the world and in this connection occupy oneself with various branches within our language, I like this aphorism by Octavio Paz, a Mexican poet /novelist:

“Poetry and mathematics are the two extreme poles of language. Beyond them there is nothing –the realm of the inexpressible; between them the immense but finite realm of speech”

Just like some scholars have stated that it’s healthy, in a stimulating kind off sense for our brain, to delve into math every now and then I’d argue that likewise through poetry and more metaphorical language we can stimulate our brain and creativity in beneficial ways.

But ultimately how humankind approaches its newfound technological achievements really boils down to the specific society structures of the world and I’m not to fond of the different contemporary forms of capitalistic societies, e.g. as seen in the West, nor the dominant discourse to be found within those with most geopolitical power. Nah I don’t like it … most of the time anyway…

O and I don’t find the use of man positive, as an atheist, when one could use humanity, humankind or its like in it is stead, the same goes for manpower/workforce, man-made/ artificial or synthetic, prehistoric man / prehistoric people. I do not see the sociolingusitic repercussions as positive of having a meme like that floating around. Razz
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Saito



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think that a cyberization of humanity is a desirable and inevitable outcome, in the long run mind you. I however see possible dangers in speeding this progress up to fast. This though of course been represented in various mediums of more or less dystopian nature.


Of course, you are correct in my thinking too. I have always paced my personal advances in technology so that at no stage do I ever NOT understand what it is I am using or working with. I will buy a new item of technology, analyze, disseminate and utilize it and understand it, then move on. Sadly a lot of people do not value this approach, or cannot comprehend it, and allow themselves to be swept along with the tide of technological revolution. These acts of 'blind trust' are the sort of thing that lead to mistakes that can only be seen long-term. Unfortunately there are blind skeptics, blind acceptors and those than understand. The skeptics always insist it's not necessary, the acceptors insist it is without knowing why, and only those that understand know the truth. In many cases blind acceptance is driven by people with more sinister motives, such as finding a niche market in order to make a stack of money, when really the long term reliability of the technology is questionable.

I guess cyberbrain sclerosis and closed shell syndrome are possibly manifestations of this in relation to GiTS? The rush to adopt cyberization by the masses who blindly did so under the guise of technology, without understanding the mechanics of it, and corporations went along with it to make money, assuring them it would all be fine. Evidently some people just either could not cope with it or reacted badly.

It's always been the way too that the nay-sayers paint a picture of doom, and the optimists paint a picture of roses. In reality life is a gritty balance of both. That's one reason I like GiTS, especially SAC. It's suitably convincing as a reality because it's not a dead loss, but it's not all roses and smiles either. There's a lot of truth in Smith's statement in The Matrix 'your reality seems to be defined by misery and suffering'. It is in a lot of ways. If they are not there then something is not right, somehow, then again a hell of total suffering is also not right either.

It's an interesting line of thought, perhaps this discussion ought to move to the Philosophy forum tho eh? Wink
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Purifying Flame of Justic



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Quote:
I think that a cyberization of humanity is a desirable and inevitable outcome, in the long run mind you. I however see possible dangers in speeding this progress up to fast. This though of course been represented in various mediums of more or less dystopian nature.



Of course, you are correct in my thinking too. I have always paced my personal advances in technology so that at no stage do I ever NOT understand what it is I am using or working with. I will buy a new item of technology, analyze, disseminate and utilize it and understand it, then move on. Sadly a lot of people do not value this approach, or cannot comprehend it, and allow themselves to be swept along with the tide of technological revolution. These acts of 'blind trust' are the sort of thing that lead to mistakes that can only be seen long-term. Unfortunately there are blind skeptics, blind acceptors and those than understand. The skeptics always insist it's not necessary, the acceptors insist it is without knowing why, and only those that understand know the truth. In many cases blind acceptance is driven by people with more sinister motives, such as finding a niche market in order to make a stack of money, when really the long term reliability of the technology is questionable.

I guess cyberbrain sclerosis and closed shell syndrome are possibly manifestations of this in relation to GiTS? The rush to adopt cyberization by the masses who blindly did so under the guise of technology, without understanding the mechanics of it, and corporations went along with it to make money, assuring them it would all be fine. Evidently some people just either could not cope with it or reacted badly.


Extreme skepticism and blind acceptance are a problem yes. As for a society’s way of dealing with the above problematic as seen in GitS, I think that it is not too surprising as fundamentally capitalism is build upon one relatively small group of people exploiting another larger group of people, this combined with the tendency in politics to, among things, look for shortsighted solutions is damageable for a society as a whole imo.


Quote:
It's always been the way too that the nay-sayers paint a picture of doom, and the optimists paint a picture of roses. In reality life is a gritty balance of both. That's one reason I like GiTS, especially SAC. It's suitably convincing as a reality because it's not a dead loss, but it's not all roses and smiles either. There's a lot of truth in Smith's statement in The Matrix 'your reality seems to be defined by misery and suffering'. It is in a lot of ways. If they are not there then something is not right, somehow, then again a hell of total suffering is also not right either.


Pain, suffering and misery etc. on the one hand plus joy, happiness and so on, on the other definitely have an important intrinsic reciprocal function for us. Changing this relationship will have consequences for have we exist in the world and to me it isn’t really desirable, not now anyway maybe later on, I’d see it as too dangerous atm. Further to pick up the Transhumanist again, I don’t like the way some of them praise chemical means to take the place of psychologist and even psychiatrist, e.g. Simon Young think it’s desirable for us to be able to turn on and off for a surge of enthusiasm, or joy and what not. Somewhat akin to “Happy Pills” (I think they’re called that in English); I don’t like them as they only deal with the problem, in a problematic way in my eyes I’d add, when it is has occurred and not with the reasons to why the problem arose in the first place.

Quote:
It's an interesting line of thought, perhaps this discussion ought to move to the Philosophy forum tho eh? Wink


Yeah maybe. : P
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Saito



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purifying Flame of Justic wrote:


Extreme skepticism and blind acceptance are a problem yes. As for a society’s way of dealing with the above problematic as seen in GitS, I think that it is not too surprising as fundamentally capitalism is build upon one relatively small group of people exploiting another larger group of people, this combined with the tendency in politics to, among things, look for shortsighted solutions is damageable for a society as a whole imo.



Yes, capitalism and commercialism have much to answer for when blind acceptance is concerned. People take the word of a large company as 'gospel' and are apathetic when it comes to actually challenging it's validity. I experience a lot of this in the computer industry. Companies like Apple, Sony, Dell, HP, Sun and Microsoft are constantly evangelizing their products as the best this, the greatest that. In actuality all have drawbacks, some are very great, but a lot of people blindly follow the lead of their favorite company because they believe what the Marketing tells them. Few ever bother to compare and contrast products to see what is the best for them. In this sense commercialization drives the speed of technological advancement, the fight to get the 'next great thing' is a battle fought with money and marketed reputation, not actual fact and understanding. Sure a new product will have advantages over an old one, but it might also have significant drawbacks that the adverts 'conveniently' leave out. There's nothing to suggest the same is not the case with the competing corporations turning out cybernetic products in the GiTS universe, in fact I'm very sure Shirow would see this as very much the case.

Quote:
Pain, suffering and misery etc. on the one hand plus joy, happiness and so on, on the other definitely have an important intrinsic reciprocal function for us. Changing this relationship will have consequences for have we exist in the world and to me it isn’t really desirable, not now anyway maybe later on, I’d see it as too dangerous atm.


'Real Life' is defined by the unexpected, be it bad or good. The element of chance. Make life predictable and it stops being interesting, and loses it;'s element of reality as defined by the human psyche. A large part of 'reality' is the element of random occurrence. Changing that to make it non-random would lead to a situation where people would lose the will to live because they knew the road ahead. No one thrives on monotony, they detest it, and even those who seem to enjoy it deep down have a desire to destroy it.

Quote:

Further to pick up the Transhumanist again, I don’t like the way some of them praise chemical means to take the place of psychologist and even psychiatrist, e.g. Simon Young think it’s desirable for us to be able to turn on and off for a surge of enthusiasm, or joy and what not. Somewhat akin to “Happy Pills” (I think they’re called that in English); I don’t like them as they only deal with the problem, in a problematic way in my eyes I’d add, when it is has occurred and not with the reasons to why the problem arose in the first place.


Happy Pills don't make you happy, they just momentarily stop you being sad. Plus the mention of 'Happy Pills' stirs up sinister and dark memories from the back of my own mind about anti-depressants, and the horrible effects they have on the human mental balance.

Quote:

Quote:
It's an interesting line of thought, perhaps this discussion ought to move to the Philosophy forum tho eh? Wink


Yeah maybe. : P


As there's no one else here talking I guess it matters little Wink
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Purifying Flame of Justic



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:

Quote:
It's an interesting line of thought, perhaps this discussion ought to move to the Philosophy forum tho eh? Wink


Yeah maybe. : P


As there's no one else here talking I guess it matters little Wink


heh decided to continue in the philosophical section anyway... Twisted Evil Confused Idea Wink -> http://www.neomythos.com/gitsphpBB/viewtopic.php?p=8853#8853
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