2nd GIG Episode 26 (Spoilers!)

[MiNaeClem]

I must restate that I don't believe Ghosts developed by AIs are regular, in fact it is very irregular. That's why everybody gets suprised and that is the main plot of the manga and the first movie...Well I'll answer with the info I have from Slipstream. This is what I believe.

Robotics forever changed when Dr Asuda of Kenbishi developed a revolutionary AI known as the Neurochip. It allowed Ghosts to inhabit Cyberbrains without any organic content. It raised the question as to what defines a human if there is nothing organic remaining. The existence of the Ghost would be reason enough. Some theorized that if a Robot or an AI would ever develop a Ghost, it would be with the help of the Neurochip. As a brain center of Robots and Ais, the Neurochip never gained popularity, possibly because of the fear that robots would, in fact, develop ghosts. Asuda believed that if the Neurochip was only given basic instructions, given time and input, allowing itself to grow, that it could indeed create the very basic parameters of a ghost. However, Asuda could not secure the patents and lost the designs to his employer Kenbishi. They then developed the Fuchikoma & Tachikoma, intelligent tanks equipped with Neurochips. When one Tachikoma was given natural oil, it damaged its hardwired instructions, allowing the Neurochip freedom to write its own code. This allowed Asuda’s dream to become a reality and the Tachikoma was the first robot to gain the basic skeleton of Ghostline.

[Guest]

Batou's fav tachikoma got oil , Batou's fav tachikoma saved him , Batou's fac tachikoma makes up 50% of the base of the AI of the tachikomas in 2gig.
So thats what got the tachikomas so far ahead in development.
Had the tachikomas not got berserk and been destroyed and sendt to other places and did not come back exept the 3 that saved batou , the tachikomas may not have developed so far.
The 3 that saved batou was the 3best , and the AI/memory could only be saved from 2 of them.

[Lightice]

I must restate that I don't believe Ghosts developed by AIs are regular, in fact it is very irregular.

I perfectly agree with you, here. It's clearly an unexpected thing to happen. However, it's far from impossible and what has happened once has a greater chance of happening again.
In the end of the Man-Machine Interface it was mentioned, that mankind must learn to co-exist with sentient artifical life...

Robotics forever changed when Dr Asuda of Kenbishi developed a revolutionary AI known as the Neurochip. It allowed Ghosts to inhabit Cyberbrains without any organic content. It raised the question as to what defines a human if there is nothing organic remaining. The existence of the Ghost would be reason enough. Some theorized that if a Robot or an AI would ever develop a Ghost, it would be with the help of the Neurochip. As a brain center of Robots and Ais, the Neurochip never gained popularity, possibly because of the fear that robots would, in fact, develop ghosts. Asuda believed that if the Neurochip was only given basic instructions, given time and input, allowing itself to grow, that it could indeed create the very basic parameters of a ghost. However, Asuda could not secure the patents and lost the designs to his employer Kenbishi. They then developed the Fuchikoma & Tachikoma, intelligent tanks equipped with Neurochips. When one Tachikoma was given natural oil, it damaged its hardwired instructions, allowing the Neurochip freedom to write its own code. This allowed Asuda’s dream to become a reality and the Tachikoma was the first robot to gain the basic skeleton of Ghostline.

Sorry, but I don't like this explanation. In many ways it interprets things very differently from the series. From what the series states, it seems that all advanced robots and androids have neurochips, which simply refers to a computer chip, that mimics a neural network - they come in large variety, though and some are more advanced than others. They actually already exist, today, although they're still pathetically simple.

While Dr Asuda developed a neurochip, that was ahead of its time, he didn't develop the concept of the neurochip, itself. It was an ingenious creation, but not as special as this description implies.
His true motivation remains a mystery, as well. To me, it seemed that he was simply driven by an ambition to do something that no-one had ever done before and get recognition for it - quite typical for a scientist.

Also, it was quite unexpected, that the AIs should develop Ghosts on their own. No-one certainly seemed to fear this possibility. During the first season Major was concerned, that the Tachikomas might become uncontrollable, but she only taught about the possibility of them having Ghosts in the very end.

Whereas the natural oil seemed to play some sort of role in the Tachikomas' development, I believe, that this role was quite small. It simply temporarily cut the single unit from the synchronization-cycle, which was the starting point for their desire for individuality.

[MiNaeClem]

So what you're saying nearly suggests what I'm saying. Created ghosts by AIs is clearly an unexpected thing to happen. However I still believe everybody feared the possibility. Major was surely concerned about Tachikomas becoming uncontrollable, i na way they became. And I'm sure she thought the possibility of ghosts in the very end. But that is because she never gave credit to that. And I do give credit to self awareness. However put aside SAC, in the first movie the main subject is the questioning the humanity. Why? Various reasons for sure, but the last smacking reason is seeing an AI to produce a ghost.

In Conclusion, Tachikomas developed something really unlikely and really enexpected, but I do not believe every AI can develop that individuality except being proggrammed. Puppetmaster was something unique just like Tachikomas. And I'm still not sure that we can call what tachikomas created a perfect Ghost.

[Lightice]

However I still believe everybody feared the possibility.

I don't consider that likely. Major actually says in the end of the first season, that she would have acted differently, had she considered a possibility, that they might have Ghosts in them.

In Conclusion, Tachikomas developed something really unlikely and really enexpected, but I do not believe every AI can develop that individuality except being proggrammed.

*shrugh*
That depends on how you define AI. Even mp3-players have AIs, these days, but they have zero chance of being sentient. But any AI with a complex enough neurochip does have that possibility.

Puppetmaster was something unique just like Tachikomas.

Unique as an individual, most definately. Unique as in unrepeatable, no. A sentient AI is more easy to copy than an organic mind, because it's already in digital form, and a sentient AI is capable of desinging offspring, like Puppetmaster promised to do, after fusing with Major.

And I'm still not sure that we can call what tachikomas created a perfect Ghost.

Perfect, schmerfect. Ghost is a Ghost. Each is unique. You can't say that one creature has a half of a Ghost, while another has full one. A being either has a Ghost, or doesn't. A creature can't be partially sentient - it either is self-aware, or it isn't. There are several levels of self-awareness, certainly, but none of them can be said to be either "perfect" or "imperfect". The Tachikomas were most certainly just as self-aware as any human, although their mind wasn't exactly human-like.

[MiNaeClem]

I believe you're taking this ghost creation thing very lightly. In the first movie the central issue is the one that engaged Philip K. Dick in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, the 1968 source novel of Blade Runner.
"What if a cyber-brain could generate its own 'ghost'?" wonders Kusanagi -- with the "ghost" of the title understood not just the sum total of a person's memories but the bedrock of her self-awareness. If that essence can take up residence as easily in a mechanical as in an organic system, "then what's the value of being human?"

Oshii takes this issue more seriously than Shirow and makes this the main plot of the first movie. I see that you won't be convinced so there's nothing more left for me to say.

[Lightice]

I believe you're taking this ghost creation thing very lightly.

Far from it. It's only that our definitions of Ghost differ, somewhat and you are still taking the stand for the favour of the organics.

"What if a cyber-brain could generate its own 'ghost'?" wonders Kusanagi -- with the "ghost" of the title understood not just the sum total of a person's memories but the bedrock of her self-awareness. If that essence can take up residence as easily in a mechanical as in an organic system, "then what's the value of being human?"

I believe, that in this very thread I described Ghost as the thing, that makes mind more than just the sum of it's parts. Physically speaking it simply means, that copying the memories isn't enough to copy a person - the Ghost - but you also require the exact patters, in which the memories have formed inside the person's brain, which is far from easy.

The question of what is the value of being human has ceased to make much sense to me, long time ago. Why a specific complex carbon compound should be more valuable, than other forms of existance? I'm afraid that I am very existentialistic in this respect - I see nothing innate value in being human, but being a sentient being opens plenty of possibilities, from which one can define one's own, individual worth.

I see that you won't be convinced so there's nothing more left for me to say.

I'm sorry, but I failed to entirely grasp, what you tried to convince me, about. That human mind is somehow special compared to non-human, or that inorganic consiousness can't be a common incident? Nope, those you can't convince me of, but if you had some other point, I invite you to explain it to me, more throughly.

[MiNaeClem]

That human mind is somehow special compared to non-human, or that inorganic consiousness can't be a common incident?

All I stood for was the second one. I'm not saying to despise robots or AIs. I really loved the quote that Kusanagi said to Batou in the second movie. The one; "We weep for a bird's cry, but not for a fish's blood. Blessed are those with a voice..." All I suggested is inorganic consiousness can't be a common incident, yes. Kamayama, Oshii and Shirow all explained that differently but what they presented was not common at all. "And even if it is common, it surely wasn't realized by humans."

[Jigabachi]

Of course! What else would they want. They want nice lifes for the refugees and freedom. That's normal for anyone. However they show their demand in a cruel way, then suicide.

Then why did the Individulaists target all those organizations and people who were supporting the refugees including the refugees?

[Lightice]

Then why did the Individulaists target all those organizations and people who were supporting the refugees including the refugees?

Because they are fanatics without need for common sense.
The discussion between Kuze and his Individual comrades gives some understanding to what they are trying to achieve. They want to break the artifical lines of support that the refugees clinge in and give them freedom known as independence - more or less their exact words. And Kuze wonders, like you, why they end up causing more suffering to the refugees because of this "noble" goal.

As I understand, their ideals aren't supposed to make much sense to those who aren't under the influence of the virus.
I also believe, that they represent the image of various real life terrorist organizations who with rethorics that seem largely nonsensical to anyone else manage to justify their atrocities to their own members, despite of that they manage to support an effect opposite to what they claim.

[Slipstream]

I remember a similar topic being discussed before the crash. I put forth two theories dealing with Ghosts...

The Unexplained Ghost Transfer Theory
Perhaps in the future of Ghost in the Shell, the idea of moving from your Shell is a far off from Science Fiction as the story is to modern day. People do not really dive into other brains. A simulation makes those who dive into others only seem that are physically moving their psyches. Someone hacking into a database is not really traveling there, but is simply getting the information to appear they are.
So, what of these few incidents of people’s ghosts being lost? What of the reports claiming someone had been able to exit their shell and download into a new one without physical transplantation? Rumors abound of a movie theatre built into a cyberbrain where people who entered never came out. A story circulated that a therapist at a CCSS facility was lost inside a patient’s brain and never returned. These reports fall into the files of the unexplained. Some can simply be passed off as rumors—urban legends to frighten people. People’s souls are bound in their brain and can never leave.
Right?

The Ghost Anchor Theory
Proving a Ghost exists as something that could be digitized does offer a conundrum on a spiritual side. Does a soul die every time he Ghost dives? Are we unknowingly copying ourselves and suiciding the originals every time our Ghost leaves our body? This is where the future got confusing. When information moves, it does not really. It copies itself, deleting the original. It never really moves. If someone’s Ghost leaves his or her body, it really does leave. It does not copy. Does a new Ghost appear where it wants, exactly the same, none the wiser? Does one die every time they attempt to leave their Shell? Its very possible the Ghost information is so unique, it cannot be duplicated, so when someone’s ghost moves, it does really appear to move. Yes, one could argue that its simply a series of switches that turn of and on in succession.
Perhaps the Ghost (our personality) is that which is anchored in our brain, and thus is the reason why it is susceptible to attack from disease and mental illness and (in the future) from Ghost hacking. Our soul, that spiritual part, remains tangible, moving where the Ghost is transferred. Using this theory, the Ghost may indeed by copying and deleting every time it movies but we remain ourselves.
I imagine this debate raging when someone first discovered the ability of Ghost transference. Later, someone invented Ghost Dubbing—actually personality copying. The fact that the duplicates could not be copied and the original faded every attempt, seemed to prove that really only one unique Ghost can ever really appear at the same time.
You will have to determine where your morality sits on this issue, as it always remained a point of confusion whenever I read it.


Okay...now, looking at SAC1, there is no evidence of any non-organics developing ghosts, which is why the Tachikoma incident is so unique and fascinating to those observing. This is why I said that the Neurochip is the only case where a non-organic component possessed a ghost...cause it was. Even though Motoko is one of the most cyberized people alive, she is still in possession of a mostly organic brain. The Nuerochip, if you read Shirow's own essay on it, is meant to replicate a human brain...it only makes sense then that this would be the only known device where a ghost could develop outside of an organic brain.

Now we get to 2nd GIG, which does stir things up a bit. It shows visible hacking, never seen in SAC1 and does seem to encourage the idea that if you copy everything in your cyberbrain to another location, your ghost "could" move as well. There was even discussion whether or not their Ghosts could maintain their structure. This indicates that someone or some people have tried this before...and failed. They upload their memories upon death...their ghost appears online, but fades away. If someone succeeded, I think the setting would have brought it up in a previous episode by now. However, the almost nonchalant way they pitch the idea of uploading all the refugees to the net indicates it had been accomplished...and people's souls can travel the sea of information... which... honestly... kinda doesn't make sense...unless you go for theory two (above). If so, the Tachikomas memory upload at the end could be their attempt to see if such an event can occur, and their "basic ghosts" would survive.

Now in 2nd GIG, we have Bioroids...what the deal with them? Without looking too much into it, I would guess these are the first Androids equipped with Neurochips. The Tachikomas Neurochips on the satellite are different than the ones from SAC1. Obviously the scientists at Spring8 discovered what damage caused the Tachikoma to develop individuality and recreated that in the new chips. With agent access, the new Chips maintained separate identities, even when sharing their memories. Further, with the same basic construction as the "damaged Tachikoma for SAC1", the Tachikomas were able develop their ghosts the same way their predecessors did.

I also imagine the Bioroids have these same chips...a prototype that, I imagine, would be seen in a negative light by the community. An android that acts perfectly human, as the Tachikoma said in SAC1, would make humans very uncomfortable.

And remember, the Puppetmaster does not exist in SAC, so it cannot be included in the conversation...as it never occurred. It is something wholly unusual and unique. A spontaneous ghost that formed in the net without a body or a point of origin (unless you believe Section 6's statement that it was originally a program developed by them)

Now, if there is an incident where a totally robotic cyberbrain developed a Ghost, I would like to see it so I can amend my information. One could point that the Jeri acted...oddly...but that is hardly proof. Even still, I would call the Jeri incident as the closest androids have come on their own.

And remember what Kubrik and Speilberg said. One could simulate emotions and not really have them. Its the definition of AI...Artificial Intelligence. Its not really intelligent--just giving the illusion of such. The Tachikomas and Proto would be the first actually intelligent machines in GITS. It cannot be the size of the data or how much it has developed. Giving that argument, the Decontacles should have developed their own Ghosts long ago. It must be the Neurochip...

Ghosts...a definition of such, does alter a few times through the whole franchise. I have always believed it refers to an individual’s mind or essence of being…their soul perhaps—although that term is somewhat of an antique in this day since the soul denotes spirituality while the ghost is a subject of science. Its what differentiates a human being from a robot. Regardless of how much the biological is replaced with cybernetic, a ghost retains its humanity and individuality...a sense of being.

One could say a machine is generating its own ghost when it starts moving beyond the parameters of their programming--when its actions are a result of emotion, rather than logic. This is why the final proof of the Tachikomas "basic ghosts" occurred when they escaped their assignments and committed self-sacrifice to save Batou. This occurs again later when they disobey Motoko at the end of 2nd Gig.

GITS indicates that Androids talk very much like Machines. No matter how human-like they sound, they always give it up. Togusa didn't know Proto was a machine. I imagine if the Tachikoma was placed in an android body, you might not tell the difference either...or if you heard them on the phone. This is what differentiates one who has a ghost and one who doesn't...

...at least...that what I think...

[Lightice]

This is why I said that the Neurochip is the only case where a non-organic component possessed a ghost...cause it was. Even though Motoko is one of the most cyberized people alive, she is still in possession of a mostly organic brain.

The Nuerochip, if you read Shirow's own essay on it, is meant to replicate a human brain...it only makes sense then that this would be the only known device where a ghost could develop outside of an organic brain.

As I wrote before, neurochips exist already, at this day and age. They are computer chips designed to act like neural patterns. In future technology it will be possible to construct them so complex, that they can indeed emulate human brainpatterns.

I have gotten the impression, that all robots, think-tanks and androids in GitS have neurochips in them, but their complexity varies greatly. I don't think, that the Tachikoma have the most complex neurochips in existance - it wouldn't make sense to use the most complex computer device in existance in a bunch of mini tanks - but they are in some way different from others. This, I think it more thanks to the little quirks that their designer put into them, that allowed them to exceed the artifical limitations put on their functionality.

Now we get to 2nd GIG, which does stir things up a bit. It shows visible hacking, never seen in SAC1 and does seem to encourage the idea that if you copy everything in your cyberbrain to another location, your ghost "could" move as well.

I disagree with this. The visual hacking is merely a representation of what the characters are sensing during the hack. They don't actually see the visuals we see, same way as the Tachikomas don't actually see the crosshairs in their field of vision, although we do. They exist simply to make clear things up for the viewer, as told in Offical Log 1, if I remember correctly - it could also have been an interview in the first 2nd Gig DVD.
In any case, the people's minds don't move in the Net any more than they do, today. You can see, that when a person disconnects, they don't have to turn around and return to their body. They just pull the plug and they're right as rain - that wouldn't be possible, if the mind was elsewhere, at the time.
Before the board crash I also made lenthy explanations of why it would be extremely impractical to move your mind in the Net, even if you could - my standing on that matter hasn't changed, either.

There was even discussion whether or not their Ghosts could maintain their structure. This indicates that someone or some people have tried this before...and failed.

I believe, that it was mostly philosophical "what if" discussion, but also there would most likely have been attempts in recovering dead individuals memory from their cyberbrain and uploading them into a working replica. That couldn't succeed, because the human mind consists of more than just the memories.

However, the almost nonchalant way they pitch the idea of uploading all the refugees to the net indicates it had been accomplished...and people's souls can travel the sea of information... which... honestly... kinda doesn't make sense...unless you go for theory two (above).

I believe, that the only reason Major was so nonchalant was, that she too had fallen under the effect of Kuze's vast charisma, as it was implied in several earlier episodes. It also helped, that she had similar doubts as Kuze.
The way the Tachikomas reacted was a pretty good indication, that it was an entirely unexpected idea and they had very little faith in succeeding. They also make the important comment that copying the memories isn't the same thing as copying Ghosts.

If so, the Tachikomas memory upload at the end could be their attempt to see if such an event can occur, and their "basic ghosts" would survive.

It was undoubtedly easier task for the Tachikomas, than it would have been for humans. They were already halfway through, so to speak, their minds already consisting of digital data.

Now in 2nd GIG, we have Bioroids...what the deal with them? Without looking too much into it, I would guess these are the first Androids equipped with Neurochips.

Then where would the "bio" part fit in, in that case? The neurochip isn't inheritely a biological system. I would follow the description of Appleseed, as that is obviously where the concept was taken from - a bioroid is an improved human built of artifical parts, no more or less.

The Tachikomas Neurochips on the satellite are different than the ones from SAC1. Further, with the same basic construction as the "damaged Tachikoma for SAC1", the Tachikomas were able develop their ghosts the same way their predecessors did.

While the chips might be different, I am positive, that the Tachikomas are the same "persons" they were in the first season. Their actions in the first episode of the 2nd Gig should prove that much. As such, I don't think it's appropriate to talk about their "predecessors". Remember, that six out of nine Tachis just went through a structural analysis and they had full backups available. The three that sacrificed themselves to save Batou most likely lost plenty of memories, but some could be reconstructed from the remaining parts - they discuss the scene as they had lived it, after all - and they too had backups, although somewhat out of date.

I also imagine the Bioroids have these same chips...

I don't. I believe that they have brains not too different from ours, although the cyberbrain-computers might be built in from the start. Remember the "bio"-part, again?

a prototype that, I imagine, would be seen in a negative light by the community. An android that acts perfectly human, as the Tachikoma said in SAC1, would make humans very uncomfortable.

To some extent I agree. That's propably why Proto was tested in secret and the term "bioroid" was used. His designers propably wanted that he'd be taught more as a human being than as a machine, which would lessen the discrimination. And it seemed to work, too - not even conservative Togusa who doesn't think highly of machines lost his compassion for Proto when he started to bleed white.

And remember, the Puppetmaster does not exist in SAC, so it cannot be included in the conversation...as it never occurred. It is something wholly unusual and unique. A spontaneous ghost that formed in the net without a body or a point of origin (unless you believe Section 6's statement that it was originally a program developed by them)

The Section 6's Project 2501 was certainly the start of the Puppetmaster, but it's self-evolving components were certainly never designed to involve sentience. That's why it could have been considered a spontanious generation of a Ghost, rather than a succeeded AI experiment. The Puppetmaster can't be ignored in GitS discussions, since even in SAC's world, there is a potential for a being like him to manifest. It's only a matter of time until the right connections happen in the right places.

Widely speaking, the sychronization caused by the Stand Alone Complex might be considered as a start for the birth of a completely different kind of nonhuman consiousness, that would derive from connection of separate human minds. Think of the Borg and you see what I mean.

And remember what Kubrik and Speilberg said. One could simulate emotions and not really have them. Its the definition of AI...Artificial Intelligence. Its not really intelligent--just giving the illusion of such.

This largely depends on the definition of AIs. The transhumanists have given a new meaning to the old abbreviation: Accelerating Intelligence. In any case, the difference between simulated emotion and a "real" one is ultimately purely ontological. If all the elements of emotion are present, how can the emotion not be real, no matter what it's source is? Human emotions can be artifically manipulated with suitable stimuli, but that doesn't make them any less real to the individual who feels them.

External signs of an emotion aren't ofcourse indication of "real" emotion. Humans can fake them and so can human creations. But if the internal signs are also present, then the simulation loses it's meaning and the emotion is as good as real.

The Tachikomas and Proto would be the first actually intelligent machines in GITS.

I don't consider Proto a machine. Even the Tachikomas are machines only in the loosest sense of the word for most of the 2nd Gig. They're living beings with physical structure different from ours. And in Proto's case, it's not very far in that respect, either.

It cannot be the size of the data or how much it has developed. Giving that argument, the Decontacles should have developed their own Ghosts long ago. It must be the Neurochip...

I repeat once again, there is nothing special in the concept of neurochip, itself and a computer powerful enough could emulate the neurochip's functions, in any case, despite of it's own physical structure. Ghost is not dependent on such a simple definition. It requires only enough complexity and good circumstances, not a specific pattern.

Its what differentiates a human being from a robot. Regardless of how much the biological is replaced with cybernetic, a ghost retains its humanity and individuality...a sense of being.

While I would have worded it differently, I agree with the basic principle of what you are saying. Ghost is what makes mind more than the sum of it's parts - we feel it as the sense of identity.

One could say a machine is generating its own ghost when it starts moving beyond the parameters of their programming--when its actions are a result of emotion, rather than logic. This is why the final proof of the Tachikomas "basic ghosts" occurred when they escaped their assignments and committed self-sacrifice to save Batou. This occurs again later when they disobey Motoko at the end of 2nd Gig.

This is a tad shakey ground. A neurologist would argue, that our emotions are the most mechanical part of our minds - hard wired in the very essence of our nerves and hormones. Also, I think that at the end of the 2nd Gig it was the action of Tachikomas' logic versus Major's emotion that took place. Major was far less rational in her belief that the Tachis could secure enough virtual space for the minds of three million people's minds, than the Tachikomas, who realized that there was a much simpler solution at hand, that had much higher chance of success. It was the fact that they were actually capable of disobeying Major, that defined their free will and made it clear, that they possessed Ghosts.

GITS indicates that Androids talk very much like Machines. No matter how human-like they sound, they always give it up.

This is most likely because there is no point for androids to be capable of doing more than their function. They aren't required very high verbal capabilities. We haven't seen a top of the line android interacting with humans in the series. Chairman Tadakoro's fetish was dolls and as such the androids in his party were passive and mute, so they don't really count. I do think that an androids specifically designer for the purpose of interaction would sound better than the ones we see during the series.

Togusa didn't know Proto was a machine.

Bioroid, not a machine (have I repeated it enough to bore you, already? ). And this was largely due that he was almost human, in any case.

I imagine if the Tachikoma was placed in an android body, you might not tell the difference either...or if you heard them on the phone. This is what differentiates one who has a ghost and one who doesn't...

This sounds way too simple, as well, I'm afraid. Sounding natural doesn't neccesarily make natural. You certainly could tell that a Tachikoma isn't a human, even though you couldn't see it. Their reactions, while obviously real and emotional aren't exactly human. They approach things from very different point of view than humans. They are way more curiosity-driven than humans, who easily become jaded and even neophobic. Their primary motive is to accumulate information - this is extremely rare with humans, no matter what we'd like to think.

[Slipstream]

As I wrote before, neurochips exist already, at this day and age. They are computer chips designed to act like neural patterns. In future technology it will be possible to construct them so complex, that they can indeed emulate human brainpatterns.

Look at the dates. The first Neurochip developed in the real world was in 1997 at Caltech. It was a network of living brain cells wired together to electrodes incorporated into a silicon chip. Shirow dubbed his Neurochip over a decade earlier. How he defines Neurochip is similar but he writes the history of the future differently. Plus it is considered a rarity in his setting. And the only time I have seen someone dub the term Neurochip in the setting has been with the Tachikomas and them only. Am I mistaken?

I have gotten the impression, that all robots, think-tanks and androids in GitS have neurochips in them, but their complexity varies greatly. I don't think, that the Tachikoma have the most complex neurochips in existance - it wouldn't make sense to use the most complex computer device in existance in a bunch of mini tanks - but they are in some way different from others. This, I think it more thanks to the little quirks that their designer put into them, that allowed them to exceed the artifical limitations put on their functionality.

I go with the information presented. They have advanced AIs and no other AI in the entire franchise can come close to their emulation. I go with data in hand.

I disagree with this. The visual hacking is merely a representation of what the characters are sensing during the hack. They don't actually see the visuals we see, same way as the Tachikomas don't actually see the crosshairs in their field of vision, although we do. They exist simply to make clear things up for the viewer, as told in Offical Log 1, if I remember correctly - it could also have been an interview in the first 2nd Gig DVD.
In any case, the people's minds don't move in the Net any more than they do, today. You can see, that when a person disconnects, they don't have to turn around and return to their body. They just pull the plug and they're right as rain - that wouldn't be possible, if the mind was elsewhere, at the time.
Before the board crash I also made lenthy explanations of why it would be extremely impractical to move your mind in the Net, even if you could - my standing on that matter hasn't changed, either.

I would still enforce that opinion as well. I don't belive people actually move as it should be physically impossible. However, both in several episodes of SAC1 and 2 and in the books, it seems to occur.

Then where would the "bio" part fit in, in that case? The neurochip isn't inheritely a biological system. I would follow the description of Appleseed, as that is obviously where the concept was taken from - a bioroid is an improved human built of artifical parts, no more or less.

They used the name but I belive stops there...because Bioroids in Appleseed didn't bleed white blood, like Proto does. Proto is still an android...built like an android. What differs must be his brain. He may be built in one peice maybe, with a single wrapped skin but thats speculation on my part.

While the chips might be different, I am positive, that the Tachikomas are the same "persons" they were in the first season. Their actions in the first episode of the 2nd Gig should prove that much. As such, I don't think it's appropriate to talk about their "predecessors". Remember, that six out of nine Tachis just went through a structural analysis and they had full backups available. The three that sacrificed themselves to save Batou most likely lost plenty of memories, but some could be reconstructed from the remaining parts - they discuss the scene as they had lived it, after all - and they too had backups, although somewhat out of date.

Well, thats where I will disagree. SAC says plainly the ones that remained at Spring8 were taken apart. The only ones that maintained themselves, escaped to save Batou. The 2nd GIG ones are based on the old ones but are not the same brains.

I don't. I believe that they have brains not too different from ours, although the cyberbrain-computers might be built in from the start. Remember the "bio"-part, again?

Well, if we go with the Caltech definition, the Bio WOULD be the Neurochip, and that could be where it ends. Remember even replicants bled red. Replicants and Appleseed Bioroids are very similar. Androids are different. I think the Bioroid in 2nd GIG is a loose definition.

I don't consider Proto a machine. Even the Tachikomas are machines only in the loosest sense of the word for most of the 2nd Gig. They're living beings with physical structure different from ours. And in Proto's case, it's not very far in that respect, either.

Well since he bled white, Proto is still a machine in my book. The same as Bishop and Ash from Aliens & Alien. They are machines as well. There is nothing really organic. Bioroid could also simple be an android made to resemble a human being more...meaning, like the ALIEN synthetic, they have silicon based organs that resemble our own. It does change the fact they are still machines.

I repeat once again, there is nothing special in the concept of neurochip, itself and a computer powerful enough could emulate the neurochip's functions, in any case, despite of it's own physical structure. Ghost is not dependent on such a simple definition. It requires only enough complexity and good circumstances, not a specific pattern.

And I still think not all robots in GITS have Neurochips. The Geisha androids, Tomliand Androids and such...doubtful. Maybe companion robots, sure. By Tachimomas beat them by leaps and bounds.

[Lightice]

Look at the dates. The first Neurochip developed in the real world was in 1997 at Caltech. It was a network of living brain cells wired together to electrodes incorporated into a silicon chip.

It's the first developed wetware system, not a neurochip, as such. Neurochip doesn't need to have organic components. It simply mimics the functions of a neural network. They have been around for longer than that, though as I said, they are still very simple structures.

And the only time I have seen someone dub the term Neurochip in the setting has been with the Tachikomas and them only. Am I mistaken?

While the subject of neurochips isn't discussed at great lengths in the series, you should note the episode of the 2nd Gig, that introduces the developer of the Tachikomas' neurochip. More or less direct quote from Major goes: "He developed a neurochip that was ahead of it's time". Not "he developed the neurochip". That is, he did something revolutional, but not to the extent you suggest.

I go with the information presented. They have advanced AIs and no other AI in the entire franchise can come close to their emulation.

Indeed, but we must remember the conditions they "live" in. It's the conditions and chances to interact with their enviroment, connected with their computer systems that are developed to be capable of individual decisions on scene that made them truly unique. This happened spontaneously, not through intentional design. That is, they weren't expected to develop that far, like Major's reactions in the first season clearly tell.

I would still enforce that opinion as well. I don't belive people actually move as it should be physically impossible. However, both in several episodes of SAC1 and 2 and in the books, it seems to occur.

Some episodes of the SAC do imply towards a moving Ghost, but others speak against it. It's quite possible, that the developers haven't given the matter as much taught as we have, going towards what is convinient for the plot, rather than making firm and logical decisions. I explain these matters to myself either as paranormal phenomena, that do exist in the GitS, to some extent, behind the scenes, or as flawed terminology on the characters' part.

They used the name but I belive stops there...because Bioroids in Appleseed didn't bleed white blood, like Proto does.

Androids could bleed red in the original GitS manga, as well, but they never do in the SAC. I believe that they made Proto to bleed white just to emphasize the fact that he's artifical and make the scene flow faster with Togusa's "are you an android?" question, rather than giving lengthy explanations. Same reason for androids - it'd confuse the viewers to see an android bleeding red.

Well, thats where I will disagree. SAC says plainly the ones that remained at Spring8 were taken apart.

Indeed they were. But machines are wonderful in the way, that you can put them back together, when you're done with the structure analysis. The data of the e-brains (the Tachis obviously don't have organic parts in their minds) can be backed up and reloaded, as well. When all the original data - not only memories, mind - can be put back together, you must accept the individual as the same as the original, since there is no difference, even to the individual, itself.

Well, if we go with the Caltech definition, the Bio WOULD be the Neurochip, and that could be where it ends.

I don't think that the neurochips would have organic components. They'd need some kind of fuel to keep the living organic system going, in that case and if you remember, the natural oil was specifically banned from them.

Well since he bled white, Proto is still a machine in my book. The same as Bishop and Ash from Aliens & Alien. They are machines as well. There is nothing really organic.

Alive =/= organic. A machine can be organic. A living being doesn't have to be. In any case, you don't even know, what the white stuff consists of. When Alien came out, there had been experiments on artifical blood plasma, which was white in colour and the idea was used with the android. The white replacement blood, however, was quite organic.

Bioroid could also simple be an android made to resemble a human being more...meaning, like the ALIEN synthetic, they have silicon based organs that resemble our own. It does change the fact they are still machines.

I always found, that they, too were living beings made of artifical components - and improved with artifical enchancments and restrictions. Bishop was a person - that's something I can't doubt.

And I still think not all robots in GITS have Neurochips. The Geisha androids, Tomliand Androids and such...doubtful. Maybe companion robots, sure. By Tachimomas beat them by leaps and bounds.

Remember, that even the most base human interaction requires capabilities, that are simply impossible for the robots based on modern computer systems. Even Jeris' simplistic behaviour is beyond our reach. I - once again following the transhumanist philosophy - believe that this difficult to get around because the structure of today's computers is so different from the human brain: one powerful core instead of billions of cores with negliable power. In order to be capable of human interaction in uncontrolled circumstances, the robot's computer must be designed with this prospect in mind - most likely in mimicry of the human brain. As I said before, this is basically how I define the neurochip - a computer chip built in mimicry of a neural system.

Tachikomas are superior to other robots and androids, but techical specs is only one side to the reasons behind this. I can't believe, that the technical solutions of their minds would be entirely unique to them, even though the particular neurochip model they use is. The circumstances play a large role, as well. Decatoncales, for example don't become sentient, because they aren't in position to do spontanious interaction or have ability to do research on their own, without a human user.

Incidentally, some android reactions in the series are surprisingly human-like. In the episode 10 of the first season the android operator seems genuinely worried and scared just a moment before she gets fried. In the episode 15 another operator demonstrates both annoyance and confusion in a very convincing manner. We even see them positioned in a way which seemed to me like they were chatting amongst themselves, although we can't hear what they are saying. None of these means that they'd have Ghosts or even possibility of generating them, but it does show, that the android technology is very highly developed in GitS, despite of the occasional older model's appearance. Curiously enough, dangerous menial work is still done by human or cyborg hands, whereas androids have conquered the service jobs.

[Gillsing]

Curiously enough, dangerous menial work is still done by human or cyborg hands, whereas androids have conquered the service jobs.

Service needs to be flawless? Only android good enough. For your security and satisfaction! An android servant for every home is our goal.

Why the obedient androids haven't conquered the menial work as well I don't know. Maybe the people working those jobs refused to accept androids stealing their paychecks? People want money, one might even equate that to "people need to eat", though in a society advanced enough to replace humans with androids I seriously doubt that anyone is going to starve to death just because they can't afford food. So in order to get paid, workers could force politicians to make laws against replacing certain jobs with androids. What kind of jobs? Jobs that require so little education that any human could do them!

Well, my other idea was even less plausible, namely that the rulers would want to keep people occupied to prevent them from having enough time to cause trouble. 'Idle hands' and all that.