2nd GIG Episode 26 (Spoilers!)

[Lightice]

Did gouda transfer the virus(that made the refuges act crazy) to the refuges trough kuze's cyberbrain ?

No. At the time Kuze made himself the leader of the refugees, he had already purged himself from the virus. The refugees didn't act crazy - they simply acted sychronized. They had good reasons for their actions, although whether those actions were acceptable might be a matter of debate.

Like the refuges acted just like gouda wanted and they where all connected to kuze in a way , some had cyberbrains and the rest was conviced by kuze.

The refugees acted under Gouda's scenario, but not because they or Kuze would have been under his direct control. Rather, he understood the principles behind their actions and created an accurate scenario, where he controlled the flow of information and that way influenced to the decisions both among the refugees and within the goverment bodies, without taking any direct action on his own.

But then somhow kuze realized that he was used in a way , and even more after the major got to him , but then he could not stop the refuges.
Is this the case , or what do you think?

No, you've gotten it somewhat wrong. Kuze wanted to escape death in Dejima by transferring his Ghost and memories into the Net and the refugees - or most of them, anyhow - wanted to follow him. The refugees did nothing that Kuze didn't want them to do, except when the SDF had cut his connection to them, under Gouda's indirect orders. Kuze didn't want to fight against the Japan's army, but when the connection to the refugees temporarily broke, they paniced and started shooting, just like Gouda had predicted.

And btw what is a bioroid?

A nod to Masamune Shirow's other well-known work, Appleseed. It's a mix of words biological and android and refers to artifically created, genetically and physically modified humans that are specifically designed to excel in the abilities that ordinary humans are lacking - that is, they don't possess the impulses, that cause humans to become violent, cruel or territorial.

[csulu]

A nod to Masamune Shirow's other well-known work, Appleseed. It's a mix of words biological and android and refers to artifically created, genetically and physically modified humans that are specifically designed to excel in the abilities that ordinary humans are lacking - that is, they don't possess the impulses, that cause humans to become violent, cruel or territorial.

Do they have a ghost?
Btw do the tachikomas have ghost , i rember proto saying just before he dies "they all have ghosts" , are he refering to the tachikomas , or is he refering to the refuges having ghost therefor not beeing able to download themself into the net. In theory that is

The refugees acted under Gouda's scenario, but not because they or Kuze would have been under his direct control. Rather, he understood the principles behind their actions and created an accurate scenario, where he controlled the flow of information and that way influenced to the decisions both among the refugees and within the goverment bodies, without taking any direct action on his own. .

Then who made the Idividual 11 , was it gouda , or did he just exploit it.
And why did the refuges that linked with kuze trust him 100% . The once that did not link did not trut him as much.

[Lightice]

Do they have a ghost?

Ee-yop. They're as human as it gets.

Btw do the tachikomas have ghost , i rember proto saying just before he dies "they all have ghosts" , are he refering to the tachikomas , or is he refering to the refuges having ghost therefor not beeing able to download themself into the net. In theory that is

Proto is undoubtedly referring to the Tachikomas. He's most likely right, too.

Then who made the Idividual 11 , was it gouda , or did he just exploit it.
And why did the refuges that linked with kuze trust him 100% . The once that did not link did not trut him as much.

Gouda created the Individual Eleven-virus, though he apparently had nothing to do with the group, that occupied the Chinese embassy, that originally used the name. Kuze was under the effect of the virus, when we first see him in the series, but at the time, when he has become the leader of the refugees, he is no longer under it's effect.

As for why the refugees trust him, there are numerous theories. I find it most likely, that it's simply in his personality to get people to trust him. They were drawn to him even in the time, when he was travelling around Eurasia. He's an extremely charismatic individual.
The Individual Eleven-virus changed his personality, somewhat, but only temporarily. The refugees who didn't trust him knew of his connection to the Eleven, but didn't understand it's reasons.

[Jigabachi]

What was the Particularist Eleven's goal? Something about freeing the refugees and cut support from japanese citizens?

[MiNaeClem]

Of course! What else would they want. They want nice lifes for the refugees and freedom. That's normal for anyone. However they show their demand in a cruel way, then suicide.

[Gillsing]

The point was, that no-one knew, that the Tachi's had done the backup, because they were disobeying Major's commands.

Ok. I had forgotten about them being 'brainless'. So their AI used to reside in chips in their bodies during the first season and then those chips were moved into the satellite and controlled their bodies like decots during the second season. That's where the waste comes in - they could just as well have kept their AI chips and merely copied their ghosts to the satellite, couldn't they? It just doesn't make much sense to put their only AI on the satellite since contact with satellites isn't always assured, what with solar radiation and bad weather. But I suppose that Motoko might never have anticipated that anything could ever happen to the satellite. If she did anticipate that something, however unlikely, could go wrong, then she really ought to have kept backups of those AIs. It doesn't seem like a completely unlikely scenario that a satellite could get shot down by an enemy, does it?

[csulu]

Remember what happned with the tachikomas in gits 1gig .
Maybe they wanted the AI in space so that they could blow up the satellite if they went berserk.
And one more reason to put it up there was the way the tachikomas figth in 2gig. They are no more concerned about death because if their body is destoryed their AI is safe in space.
And maybe they sent then AI in space , and then it evolved into a ghost , so they could not get it back.

[Lightice]

That's where the waste comes in - they could just as well have kept their AI chips and merely copied their ghosts to the satellite, couldn't they?

But it wasn't clear if they had Ghosts when the AIs were put up there. They, themselves were somewhat uncertain of whether they have Ghosts, or not. And there's also a chance, that it wouldn't have been technologically possible to keep the Ghosts and AIs separate, same way as separating human Ghost from the body is an extremely far-fetched idea, even though it just might be possible.

It just doesn't make much sense to put their only AI on the satellite since contact with satellites isn't always assured, what with solar radiation and bad weather.

The satellite-connection is pretty reliable, these days. We can assume it's even more reliable in the GitS.

It doesn't seem like a completely unlikely scenario that a satellite could get shot down by an enemy, does it?

But when the satellite is owned by the an extremely paranoid super-power, like the American Empire, perhaps she assumed that they'd take care of all the problems. For all we know, as a military satellite, it could possess advanced ECM-systems, on board.

And one more reason to put it up there was the way the tachikomas figth in 2gig. They are no more concerned about death because if their body is destoryed their AI is safe in space.

Thet weren't very concerned of death even during the first season - they had backups, after all. They are machines designed for combat, remember?
As I understand, the primary reason for setting up their AIs to separate location from their bodies, was to allow them to be detached from their physical shells, giving them the handy agent-function. At least I think it was implied, that this was the reason.

[csulu]

Thet weren't very concerned of death even during the first season - they had backups, after all. They are machines designed for combat, remember?

That was the first season , and long before they developed into what we see in 2gig.
They got feelings(to a point) , and individual "ghosts"?

[MiNaeClem]

They don't have ghosts at all. They just have a complicated AI. What they developed out of curiosity was something else than a ghost but it sure was ghost-like. There never been a proof that they have ghosts. In the 2nd gig they all had their individualities. And by that they disobeyed Motoko and maybe uploaded themselves to the Net.

[csulu]

maybe we hyped the hole tachikoma "ghost" thing up a bit . But there is still the quote "they all have ghosts" by Proto.

[MiNaeClem]

No, that quote is not right... Proto says "You all must have ghosts". He just can't believe a tachikoma AI can do that sacrifice.

[Lightice]

That was the first season , and long before they developed into what we see in 2gig.

Point, but they did have some emotional level even during the first season, though it was strictly curiosity-based. They were almost as far developed in the end of the first season, as they were in the 2nd Gig and they were willing to sacrifice themselves for a person they cared about.

They don't have ghosts at all. They just have a complicated AI. What they developed out of curiosity was something else than a ghost but it sure was ghost-like. There never been a proof that they have ghosts. In the 2nd gig they all had their individualities. And by that they disobeyed Motoko and maybe uploaded themselves to the Net.

Ghost = sense of identity. It's not any mystical "soul", but a thing, which can be gained through accumulation of data in proper pattern, as happened to Puppet Master in the original manga and movie. There is nothing in a Ghost, that would require organic frame to support it - an AI-system that is complex enough is just as capable of possessing a Ghost, as the human brain.
The Tachikomas had, without doubt sense of "self" and that can be equalled as possession of Ghost, at least as far as I (and Proto) are concerned.

He just can't believe a tachikoma AI can do that sacrifice.

That isn't quite right, either. Like I said earlier, AI can be fully capable of possessing a Ghost. From a wide perspective, Proto, himself could be considered to be an AI, because he is made of artifical materials. Rather, he is impressed by their song and what it implies. They are indeed living beings, rather than simple, mechanic weapons.

[MiNaeClem]

Ghost = sense of identity. It's not any mystical "soul", but a thing, which can be gained through accumulation of data in proper pattern, as happened to Puppet Master in the original manga and movie. There is nothing in a Ghost, that would require organic frame to support it - an AI-system that is complex enough is just as capable of possessing a Ghost, as the human brain.
The Tachikomas had, without doubt sense of "self" and that can be equalled as possession of Ghost, at least as far as I (and Proto) are concerned

I must say that I cannot agree with that. What happened with the puppetmaster is a phenomenon for everyone, and where Motoko starts to question humanity deeper. . It's not likely for AIs to produce ghost. And "ghost" cannot be explained that easily, there are many things that are mysterious about ghosts. And Puppetmaster developed a very "Ghost-Likely" structure which makes a ghost more mysterious.

What tachikomas produced might be ghosts, we cannot know. They surely developed something very important. However there is no exact reference for that what they developed is a ghost.

[Lightice]

I must say that I cannot agree with that. What happened with the puppetmaster is a phenomenon for everyone, and where Motoko starts to question humanity deeper. . It's not likely for AIs to produce ghost.

Indeed, far from likely. However, may I remind you, that the person who designed the Tachikomas' AI was a solitary genious, who alone knew how complex their minds could evolve. They aren't exactly run-off-the-mill kind of AIs. However unlikely, it is possible for Ghosts to spontaneously generate.

And "ghost" cannot be explained that easily, there are many things that are mysterious about ghosts. And Puppetmaster developed a very "Ghost-Likely" structure which makes a ghost more mysterious.

Puppet Master generated a clear Ghost-line, similar to those of dubbed Ghosts, but without information detioration. This is how it was described in the movie, anyhow.
The Ghost is mysterious, in it's way - it's the thing that makes mind more than just the sum of it's parts. However, it can be copied, as we've witnessed in Ghost-dubbing, so there must be some knowledge of it's nature. In any case, you give too little credit to sense of identity, the understanding of the concept of "self". That, more than anything else deserves to be called the Ghost, as used in GitS.

However there is no exact reference for that what they developed is a ghost.

The implications that they developed Ghosts were so great, that it is you, who should be proving, that they didn't. There is no evidence, whatsoever, that they didn't develop Ghosts and many places of the narration, as well as the interaction between Tachikomas does strongly imply that they did. Exact references aren't neccesary in a work of fiction.