2nd GIG Episode: To those without even a name; SELECON

Talk about GitS:SAC, 2nd Gig, & SSS here!

Moderator: sonic

User avatar
douyang
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:08 pm

2nd GIG Episode: To those without even a name; SELECON

Post by douyang »

For those of you who haven't seen it, this may contain spoilers.







I've just finished watching "SELECON". I need someone to clue me in what just happened. Who is Kawashima, and why does section 9 need his external memory device (whatever that is) to prove Goda's involvement with the individual eleven?

And how does the hacking technology (the means by which boma and ishikawa access the information) work? I understand the part about them needing to break through a "barrier" or Gits' version of a firewall, but I have no idea what all the technobabble ( does anyone remember the dialogue during the scene where they dive in?) is supposed to mean.
What I mainly got was that the individual eleven members were recruited by a virus uploaded into their cyberbrains, and this may be the same virus boma gets infected with towards the end, but how does it infect people to begin with, and what were the countermeasures ishikawa told the tachikoma to implement to protect boma's mind from it?

For that matter, how is the virus supposed to even work? Can the individual eleven be said to have free will in what they do? It doesn't seem to be the same as ghost hacking.

Also, I feel that there is some underlying significance behind Kuze and the other terrorists discussing their contributions to the cause, besides pointing out the fact that they follow a manifesto layed out in an essay that apparently never existed, but which they believe is real. What else is this supposed to tell us about them?

It would be really helpful if someone could point me to transcripts of the episodes. Any assistance here would be greatly appreciated, I want to understand the show so I can enjoy and discuss the themes.
User avatar
Lightice
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:22 am

Re: 2nd GIG Episode: To those without even a name; SELECON

Post by Lightice »

douyang wrote:I've just finished watching "SELECON". I need someone to clue me in what just happened. Who is Kawashima, and why does section 9 need his external memory device (whatever that is) to prove Goda's involvement with the individual eleven?


Kawashima is a member of the Individual Eleven, recognised via footage from the crime scenes claimed responsibility by the Eleven. He appeared in the episode 8 - Vegetarian Feast.
External memory device is a computerized extension of one's memory, attached to a cyberbrain in which one can download information like to a computer, but it seems that it also stores at least parts of your ordinary memories as a part of the deal. Those memories can then be downloaded by someone who has access to the files. All members of Section 9, apart from Aramaki have these things in their cyberbrain, as well.
They need - or rather would have needed - Kawashima's external memory to find traces of viral tampering, in order to prove, that the Individual Eleven wasn't spontaneously generated, like the Laughing Man case, but deliberately created.
And how does the hacking technology (the means by which boma and ishikawa access the information) work? I understand the part about them needing to break through a "barrier" or Gits' version of a firewall, but I have no idea what all the technobabble ( does anyone remember the dialogue during the scene where they dive in?) is supposed to mean.


The hacking technology doesn't seem to be too different from today's equivalent. To find information, Ishikawa and Boma check various archives and databases, some which they have authorization to enter, but in most cases not. The net seems to be more scattered than the Internet today, broken in a large number of local nets that must be accessed separately - this kind of breakdown is seen as a possible threat for the future of the Internet, but it may be, that to some extent it will be unavoidable.

In any case, if I remember correctly, most of the technobabble is to large part copied from Man-Machine Interface manga, continuation to the original Ghost in the Shell manga. It's content isn't very important. It just describes variety of actions taken, while diving into a protected database.
What I mainly got was that the individual eleven members were recruited by a virus uploaded into their cyberbrains, and this may be the same virus boma gets infected with towards the end, but how does it infect people to begin with, and what were the countermeasures ishikawa told the tachikoma to implement to protect boma's mind from it?


As the episode states, the virus was set loose in the net and potentially it could end up in the cyberbrain of practically anyone. However, it only infects people who have downloaded all the ten essays by Patrick Silvestre, plus the eleventh fake, that contains the key of the virus.
There are even further conditions for the most extreme infections to take place - all the most central characters of the Individual Eleven were of police or military background with more than 50% of their bodies replaced with cybernetics.
For that matter, how is the virus supposed to even work? Can the individual eleven be said to have free will in what they do? It doesn't seem to be the same as ghost hacking.


While how the virus actually works isn't clearly stated - it would propably require an essay on itself, in any case - it seems, that it affects people whose motivations already lean to the same direction the viral effects push them to. It guides their taughts to a specific direction, although their minds have some leeway in how they execute the functions the virus demands. In whole, they really don't have very much free will, even though they, themselves don't seem to realize it. The virus isn't as straightforward action as ghosthack, but it's very similar in effects.
Also, I feel that there is some underlying significance behind Kuze and the other terrorists discussing their contributions to the cause, besides pointing out the fact that they follow a manifesto layed out in an essay that apparently never existed, but which they believe is real. What else is this supposed to tell us about them?


The acts of terrorism they describe have been mentioned in the earlier episodes. I don't think they signifigy much more than the fact, that despite of that their ideology calls for liberation of the Asian refugees, they manage to make the refugee problem even worse than it originally was. Kuze notices the difference between intentions and outcome, but doesn't manage to get the message through to others, who are too strongly influenced by the virus.
It would be really helpful if someone could point me to transcripts of the episodes. Any assistance here would be greatly appreciated, I want to understand the show so I can enjoy and discuss the themes.


For now, I haven't seen any of the 2nd Gig. I can't help you, here. Perhaps we should do those transcripts in this forum...
Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!
User avatar
Black Mamba
Posts: 262
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:20 am
Location: United States

Post by Black Mamba »

Nice explanations Lightice.
However, it only infects people who have downloaded all the ten essays by Patrick Silvestre, plus the eleventh fake, that contains the key of the virus.
So, for this virus to become active someone must have downloaded the ten essays and the eleventh fake (and the only explanation for fake I can think of is that there is no original copy, what do you mean by "fake?)? The odds aren't very high, unless the virus inhabited thousands with no effect (no effect from no essays).

Are the essays supposed to give the victims their motives or is it sort of like an activation key?

For now, I haven't seen any of the 2nd Gig. I can't help you, here. Perhaps we should do those transcripts in this forum...
That would be hard, but not impossible. You make it sound like you've seen transcripts of the 1st gig...
Image
User avatar
Lightice
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:22 am

Post by Lightice »

Black Mamba wrote: and the only explanation for fake I can think of is that there is no original copy, what do you mean by "fake"?


Fake, as in not really written by Patrick Silvestre, but only speculated by his fans and exploited by Gouda.
The odds aren't very high, unless the virus inhabited thousands with no effect (no effect from no essays).


It propably potentially infected hundreds of thousands of web surfers, maybe even millions. But without the activation key, it would be just a meaningless string of data, propably deleted the next time the surfers cleaned up their memory. Only the fans of Patrick Silvestre, who would have downloaded the essays in their external memories would have experienced it's effects and only a fairly small number of them turned their newly found resolve into actual deeds. Ultimately, there were only eleven - most likely on purpose - who followed their forged ideals to the end. Some others made suicides, as well, but their actions were apparenly of less importance and same way their deaths were far less flashy.
I suggest you watch again the episodes between the prime ministers assassination attempt and the current situation and pay close attention to what especially Gouda has to say.
Are the essays supposed to give the victims their motives or is it sort of like an activation key?


Don't assume that I'm absolutely correct about this, but it seems to me, that the essays downloaded in one's external memory work as an activation key for the virus. Borma felt it's effect after downloading the essays and he certainly didn't share the ideologies of the Eleven.
That would be hard, but not impossible. You make it sound like you've seen transcripts of the 1st gig...


Up until episode 21, if I remember correctly. Unfortunately, the link seems to have died, so the page has either moved or dissapeared.
Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!
User avatar
Black Mamba
Posts: 262
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:20 am
Location: United States

Post by Black Mamba »

Thanks Lightice, that clears things up and really makes alot of sense. I will be sure to watch rewatch the episodes from the assassination attempt.

I am curiouse as to what exactly Gouda plans to get out of all this, it can't be as simple as a stop of Asain Refugees into Japan. But I guess I'll find out through time.
Image
User avatar
Motoko2030
Posts: 438
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:31 pm
Location: Saline, Michigan

Post by Motoko2030 »

Yes thanks Lightice for clearing up what happened in the Selecon episode, does the virus affect the free will of the people who have been infected with it, the people that share the Individual Eleven ideology committed suicide except Kuze, does this mean that the virus made them commit suicide and why didn't Kuze commit suicide unless the virus did not fully affect him and his role isn't finished yet or Kuze was never affected the virus in the first place.

Black Mamba, in episode 9, Gohda created the Individual Eleven virus to create a refugee uprising so that the refugees will be sent to an autonomous region inside Japan and Japan will return to a state of well being during the Cold War where Japan was assisted by other international countries instead of being independent like it is in the SAC universe.

So the Individual Eleven essay is a fake then why would the professor of the Niihiama University say he has the original and copies of the essay and try to find them for Togusa unless he was being controlled by a third party to say that he had the essays.
User avatar
Black Mamba
Posts: 262
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:20 am
Location: United States

Post by Black Mamba »

So the Individual Eleven essay is a fake then why would the professor of the Niihiama University say he has the original and copies of the essay and try to find them for Togusa unless he was being controlled by a third party to say that he had the essays.
There was an original. The reason for it being "fake" is because it was not written by Patrick Silvestre. But rather by fans and "exploited" by Gouda. At least that is the way I've interpreted it.

So Gouda's true motives are to put a stop to Asain Refugee coming into Japan? Thats a bit dissapointing... I was expecting something big...
why didn't Kuze commit suicide
He didn't?
Image
User avatar
miki-chan
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:43 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA

Post by miki-chan »

So Gouda's true motives are to put a stop to Asain Refugee coming into Japan? Thats a bit dissapointing... I was expecting something big...
I got more of the impression that Gohda just plain wants to destabilize the country so that he can wield more and more power from behind the scenes. But I suppose that will be clarified as the series progresses.
Quote:
why didn't Kuze commit suicide


He didn't?
He was the only one of that group that didn't get his head cut off--you can tell because the animators thoughtfully clad him all in white to distinguish him from his cohorts.
Oh, and a dialogue goof in the English dub! Batou refers to Kuze by name in Selecon, but only Gohda and co. know Kuze's name at this point (I don't think Batou does so in the Japanese version)...
"Smoke and idiots love high places."--Batou
User avatar
Lightice
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:22 am

Post by Lightice »

Motoko2030 wrote:Yes thanks Lightice for clearing up what happened in the Selecon episode, does the virus affect the free will of the people who have been infected with it, the people that share the Individual Eleven ideology committed suicide except Kuze, does this mean that the virus made them commit suicide and why didn't Kuze commit suicide unless the virus did not fully affect him and his role isn't finished yet or Kuze was never affected the virus in the first place.


Kuze's role is more complex one and will be explained, later in the series. For now I just say, that he was affected by the virus, but in the different way than the others, which is implied by his choice of clothing compared to his comrades.
Black Mamba, in episode 9, Gohda created the Individual Eleven virus to create a refugee uprising so that the refugees will be sent to an autonomous region inside Japan and Japan will return to a state of well being during the Cold War where Japan was assisted by other international countries instead of being independent like it is in the SAC universe.


This isn't quite the case - just Major's original interpretation mixed with your own interpretation. Refugees are only pawns in Gouda's plan and the Individual Eleven is his tool for manipulating both them and Japan's citizens into actions his scenario demands. Compare Gouda's words with the interviews in the first DVD of the 2nd Gig - it gives some understanding of what he's saying in episode 9. I must admit that I understood very little of his Shangri-La references before watching the interview.
So the Individual Eleven essay is a fake then why would the professor of the Niihiama University say he has the original and copies of the essay and try to find them for Togusa unless he was being controlled by a third party to say that he had the essays.


The professor was also affected by the virus - he collected Silvestre's works, after all. You see how all the members of the Eleven are also confused about the lack of the book, despite of that they distinctly remembered taking it with them. It seems that the way the virus affects you depends strongly on your original personality - the professor wasn't a type to make any real actions or have resolve for a suicide.
Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!
User avatar
Motoko2030
Posts: 438
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:31 pm
Location: Saline, Michigan

Post by Motoko2030 »

If you have seen the episode, check at the end, you will see Kuze wearing all white walking away.

Shouldn't that professor knew that the Individual Eleven essay wasn't written by Patrick Silvestre and it was written by fans of his work.

As for Gohda motives, I am not 100 percent sure what his true motives are, he wants Japan to return to a Shangri-La way of existence so he is using the Individual Eleven to make the public hate the refugees, what I don't understand is but Shangri-La is a mythical place where there no wars, sickness or death exists and there is only peace, so how can Gohda achieve transforming Japan into Shangri-La by using the Individual Eleven?

Are there any interviews that explain the discussion between Chroma (Motoko's Avatar) and the virtual Gohda?

I have to say that watching Stand Alone Complex makes you think about the episodes even after you have watched the episode.
User avatar
douyang
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:08 pm

Re: 2nd GIG Episode: To those without even a name; SELECON

Post by douyang »

Lightice wrote:
"The acts of terrorism they describe have been mentioned in the earlier episodes. I don't think they signifigy much more than the fact, that despite of that their ideology calls for liberation of the Asian refugees, they manage to make the refugee problem even worse than it originally was. Kuze notices the difference between intentions and outcome, but doesn't manage to get the message through to others, who are too strongly influenced by the virus."
I always got the impression that they were xenophobic/racist nationalists who wanted to drive the refugees out of Japan. This is supported by the fact that in SELECON we see one of the the Individual Eleven desecrating a section of the war memorial dedicated to those with Korean surnames, and their talk of making the public see the refugees as "intruders".

How then does it make sense to speak of "liberating" the refugees and giving them their own country? Do they mean establishing a place for them outside of Japan?

Lightice wrote:
As the episode states, the virus was set loose in the net and potentially it could end up in the cyberbrain of practically anyone. However, it only infects people who have downloaded all the ten essays by Patrick Silvestre, plus the eleventh fake, that contains the key of the virus.
The english version on adult swim has Boma talk about the virus having an effect only if all eleven essays including the fake are uploaded to one's external memory and "memorized word per word". Is this what you're trying to say?
User avatar
Lightice
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:22 am

Post by Lightice »

Motoko2030 wrote: Shouldn't that professor knew that the Individual Eleven essay wasn't written by Patrick Silvestre and it was written by fans of his work.


As I said in my earlier post, the professor was influenced by the virus, although not terribly drastically.
As for Gohda motives, I am not 100 percent sure what his true motives are, he wants Japan to return to a Shangri-La way of existence so he is using the Individual Eleven to make the public hate the refugees, what I don't understand is but Shangri-La is a mythical place where there no wars, sickness or death exists and there is only peace, so how can Gohda achieve transforming Japan into Shangri-La by using the Individual Eleven?


In the series Shangri-La is used as a metaphor for state, where the nation's and it's people's minds are in consensus - not as the usual paradise on Earth, except perhaps in people's minds. Many people today want a strong goverment which fulfills the will of the nation as whole. The trouble is, that when it really happens, it usually takes the form of military dictatorship. As Gouda says, in Japan this has happened twice - once in the feudal times and once during the militarist rule of the early 20th century.
Like I said, see the interview. It's quite enlightening.
Are there any interviews that explain the discussion between Chroma (Motoko's Avatar) and the virtual Gohda?


Not directly, but the interviews of the staff do illuminate the state in which Japan is during the series and that helps understanding this discussion. Gouda's virtual persona speaks mostly of his own motivations and his relationship with the rest of the world. It gives his character quite a bit of depth, although I had to watch the conversation several times to understand most of it.
I always got the impression that they were xenophobic/racist nationalists who wanted to drive the refugees out of Japan. This is supported by the fact that in SELECON we see one of the the Individual Eleven desecrating a section of the war memorial dedicated to those with Korean surnames, and their talk of making the public see the refugees as "intruders".

How then does it make sense to speak of "liberating" the refugees and giving them their own country? Do they mean establishing a place for them outside of Japan?


Fanatics don't thrive on logic. They indeed want to get rid of refugees, but continuously speak of liberation and talk how they cut the artifical lines of support so that the refugees may live on their own. Early in the series the goverment and Section 9 fear that the Eleven may be allied with the refugees, but later on the two groups are seen as antagonistic towards each other.
The english version on adult swim has Boma talk about the virus having an effect only if all eleven essays including the fake are uploaded to one's external memory and "memorized word per word". Is this what you're trying to say?


Exactly. I think I said just that. Downloading an essay into your external memory equals memorizing it word to word, or so I came to understand in the last episode of the first season.
Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!
User avatar
THYREN
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:08 am
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Post by THYREN »

************************************ SPOILER ******************************************





Lightice wrote:
Motoko2030 wrote: Shouldn't that professor knew that the Individual Eleven essay wasn't written by Patrick Silvestre and it was written by fans of his work.


As I said in my earlier post, the professor was influenced by the virus, although not terribly drastically.
I thought it was the same professor that commits suicide later on. Am I wrong ???



And are you sure about the fact that Aramaki doesn't have any external memory ?
Why drink and drive when you can smoke and fly ?

Image
Jigabachi
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:36 am

Post by Jigabachi »

No that was a media debater who commited suicide in the end of episode. He showed up during the previous episode which he was debating with other debaters on the show about Particularist Eleven.
User avatar
douyang
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:08 pm

Post by douyang »

Lightice wrote:
Motoko2030 wrote:
Are there any interviews that explain the discussion between Chroma (Motoko's Avatar) and the virtual Gohda?


Not directly, but the interviews of the staff do illuminate the state in which Japan is during the series and that helps understanding this discussion. Gouda's virtual persona speaks mostly of his own motivations and his relationship with the rest of the world. It gives his character quite a bit of depth, although I had to watch the conversation several times to understand most of it.
Where can I find these interviews?
Post Reply