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2nd GIG episode Martial Law
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Jigabachi



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: 2nd GIG episode Martial Law Reply with quote

Discuss
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Motoko2030



Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 438
Location: Saline, Michigan

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An excellent episode, the story is progressing along just nicely and the man sharing tea with Kuze is Aramaki's older brother, Yosuke, he was first mentioned in teh SAC 1st Season episode, Scandal.
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douyang



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 128

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've watched it twice and I'm still curious about what Kuze meant by the net turning into the foundation for the "superstructure" of his revolution. I'm wishing they would stop being so cryptic and give us more to go on.

And what post does that guy with the white hair hold in Kayabuki's cabinet? He seems to be taking over her government, but how?

I'm guessing Yousuke Aramaki is an important leader among the refugees, as hinted at last season.
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Tonks_kittygoth



Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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Location: The dark dark woods where the kitten monsters live....or happy la la land, my summer home.

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: 2nd GIG episode Martial Law Reply with quote

Jigabachi wrote:
Discuss


Yes master we will discuss. *robot voice*

Did the idiot refuge fireing at the soldier with out orders remind anyone of the final battle between Mordred and Arthur in the Arthurian Legands.

Just as they were trying to negotiate peace, a soldier sees a serpant by his foot and draws his sword to kill it. everyone else just sees a drawn sword and attacks, bringing on a futile and doomed war where whatever Knights are left die.

I suppose one could see Ghoda and his manipulation of the net as the serpant.

Douyang says
Quote:

And what post does that guy with the white hair hold in Kayabuki's cabinet? He seems to be taking over her government, but how?


I dont know who he is but he looks hauntingly like a more healthy Ghoda. Remember a while back when he was lurking in the corridor right outside the Prime Minister's private room. He's creeeeepy.

Poor Batou, he would go and look to see if the Major really did have feelings for Kuze. Cant he meet some nice cute little cyborg girl that returns his feelings...

So Ghoda Wants section 9 to go to Deijima? Confusing....
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douyang



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 128

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a way this episode was a let down. I wanted a major big time bloodbath, a battle scene with fury and explosions that really conveyed the idea of all hell breaking loose. Some kid sniping a guy in the head a couple tanks sliding into a river just didn't cut it.

I wonder what their effects budget was.
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Elmo



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

douyang wrote:
I've watched it twice and I'm still curious about what Kuze meant by the net turning into the foundation for the "superstructure" of his revolution. I'm wishing they would stop being so cryptic and give us more to go on.


It's a little bit confusing but the superstructure of a revolution is something that first appeared as a Marxist concept. The superstructure is the particular form through which human subjectivity engages with the material base substance of society. This is of course purely a dialectical concept, not a distinction between entities in the real sociopolitical world. However Kuze is trying to make the superstructure 'real' by linking the revolutionaries in the net and thus no matter what happens to the physical base substance of the refugees existence, the superstructure of his revolution will hold and continue to spread it's meme in the base world.

sorry if that wasn't brilliantly explained, I'll try to explain better when i have more time. :oops:

douyang wrote:
In a way this episode was a let down. I wanted a major big time bloodbath, a battle scene with fury and explosions that really conveyed the idea of all hell breaking loose. Some kid sniping a guy in the head a couple tanks sliding into a river just didn't cut it.


never fear, the bloodbath is coming. With explosions, kersplosions and people being kersploded.. Twisted Evil
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Last edited by Elmo on Sun May 07, 2006 4:48 am; edited 2 times in total
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Tonks_kittygoth



Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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Location: The dark dark woods where the kitten monsters live....or happy la la land, my summer home.

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
kersplosions and people being kersploded..


OoooOOOooooOOOoo Kerblosions even!

*grins in a disturbingly delighted way*

I hope no one I like gets too kersploded, at least to the point they cant be snaped back together (like those little lego people that kersplode so well...)

The superstructure meme thingymabob makes my brain sad.
Brain is to 'splody already...
( still writing evil papers Ive been whining about for months now... )

Perhaps I have the Brain Worms!!!! *in Zim voice*
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miki-chan



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: Berkeley, CA

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Did the idiot refuge fireing at the soldier with out orders remind anyone of the final battle between Mordred and Arthur in the Arthurian Legands.

It kinda reminded me of the old archer in Lord of the Rings: the Two Towers who accidentally let an arrow fly, killing one of the orcs (shows how shallow my cultural references are, doesn't it Rolling Eyes ).
Quote:
And what post does that guy with the white hair hold in Kayabuki's cabinet? He seems to be taking over her government, but how?

His name escapes me at the moment, but he's the Cabinet Secretary. I think that means that he's a career civil servant rather than an elected official (being a Yank, my grasp of how the parlimentary form of gov't is limited to what I could glean from Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister...)
Oh hey, did anyone notice how Saito managed to get around that fence to the chopper? I'm trying to remember if he was shown jumping it or not--if yes, it's a serious goof since he doesn't have artificial legs like the rest of the gang...
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Lightice



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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

miki-chan wrote:

His name escapes me at the moment, but he's the Cabinet Secretary.


That is correct. His name is Takakura and he is the guy that the Cabinet Intelligence Service, at least in theory, answers to. As Gouda's accomplice, though, he's fairly unwitting. He's an ideological politican, not a scientific one.

Quote:
I think that means that he's a career civil servant rather than an elected official.


I'm not so sure about that. While my grasp of Japan's political system isn't very good, either, I believe, based on some knowledge of the officals of my own country, that he is elected from within the party.

Quote:
Oh hey, did anyone notice how Saito managed to get around that fence to the chopper? I'm trying to remember if he was shown jumping it or not--


Yes, he jumped and yes, it's a mistake. Though the movements are kind of blurry, so perhaps we can entertain the idea that one of the others helped him.

As for Kuze's speech, Elmo explained it quite well. He still gets to clarify his ideals, in the later episodes, too.
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Last edited by Lightice on Mon May 08, 2006 9:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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secondhandevil



Joined: 07 May 2006
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Location: The Republic of Valverde

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Hi,I'm the new kid. Reply with quote

Am I the only one who found it wierd that in a world where we know that autonomous weapons systems exist they'd have so many unprotected infantry just standing around on the on the other side of a bunch of relatively well protected "enemy" militiamen. I Mean why not use drones,or at least use the tanks for cover.

Possibilities:

A). I'm reading too much into it and they had to have that scene to advance the plot. (most likely )

B). It was a rush job. The GSDF was doing what it could with what it had. The first unit on the scene may not have been the best one for the job.

C). This was a sensitive mission and Human minds are more effective and versitle than that of drone.

D). (The most interesting) conspiracy theory:They wanted visible casualties to help justify the retaking of umm....that Island I can't pronounce. Laughing
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douyang



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What kind of autonomous weapons are you talking about? The A.I controlled tanks and aircraft? I figured that those were probably pretty expensive and difficult to build and maintain, so their availability is limited and they still use human infantry and vehicle drivers for most jobs.

Then again, it was pretty stupid of them to just stand there without even setting up some sandbags or other forms of cover. But I'd write it off as the Gits writer's poor knowledge of actual military tactics.
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Tonks_kittygoth



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Location: The dark dark woods where the kitten monsters live....or happy la la land, my summer home.

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, maybe they thougt that the refugees didnt have decent enough rifles to fire that far. Or they thought that the refugees werent stupid enough to start the war against such a better armed opponent.

I Could see Ghoda somehow influencing them to make stupid decisions like that though, to keep his plan rolling.
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Black Mamba



Joined: 23 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found Kuze's real revolution to be extremely confusing. It made no sense to me what so ever.
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AlphonseVanWorden



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Black Mamba wrote:
I found Kuze's real revolution to be extremely confusing. It made no sense to me what so ever.


Elmo's basically correct about the reference to superstructures. It also relates to the Tachikomas' conversation about Dawkins and Lovelock in "Pat." As Elmo wrote:

Quote:
The superstructure is the particular form through which human subjectivity engages with the material base substance of society. This is of course purely a dialectical concept, not a distinction between entities in the real sociopolitical world.


One thing, though-- I believe Kuze was saying that the superstructure is already "real" and that it's changing from its original nature, that it's evolving. And Marxist models of subjectivity-- and the show's portrayal of subjectivity, for that matter-- differ from what most folks think of as subjectivity.

So I'll add to or modify Elmo's comments. (I'm going to reduce a long argument to it basic components, and the thinking about these matters has changed a lot since Marx's day, so I'll apologize in advance.)

In Marxism, the superstructure-- the cultural and social spheres, the thought-forms which inform and shape human subjectivity, influence what a subject perceives, and motivate particular interactions with the material world-- is determined by economic relations and means of production. (Hegel's abstract dialecticism assumed that ideas were the basis of history; for Marx, materially-based economic relationships informed ideas.) As economic relationships grow more complex, they require technological changes or advances; these changes come about because people think technological change will make the existing system run more smoothly. The economic relationships produce a superstructure, a mental picture or model of reality. The superstructure-- which has been changed by means of production and by economic relationships-- causes folks to believe in a "perfectible" reality that can be made, through technology, to correspond to the model or superstructure... (Welcome to dialecticism.) These technological advances appear at first to promote and stabilize existing economic relationships, but by their very nature, technological advances eventually change economic relationships, and this in turn eventually changes the superstructure.

(Thinkers such as Gramsci, Marcuse, and Negri have some interesting things to say about and offer some interesting modifications to this particular aspect of Marxism, and I think Gramsci's notion of hegemonic capitalism is relevant to the show in general, but I don''t think any of these things are particularly relevant to the point, so I'll mention them in passing, and I'll move on.)

To use a pretty well-known example, specific economic practices-- the development and refinement of capitalist practices-- gave rise to industrialization, but industrialization changed the nature of labor. This in turn changed how people thought about slavery... and discussions about slavery fed into discussions of labor rights, etc. Women's rights-- previously taken for granted-- became a matter of discussion. Even the nature of families was changed by economic relationships, as families became spread out, decentralized. And slowly, the superstructure-- the domain of thinking, attitudes, society, and culture-- changed. Various revolutions and social upheavals were the result of changes in the base, and were manifestations of the resulting tensions...

Basically, it works in a bottom-to-top way, with the bottom being the economic relationships and means of production and labor, and the top being ideas, attitudes, aesthetics, etc. But it's an ongoing dialectic-- the economic relations and means change, then the superstructure change, then the economic things change, then the superstructure changes, then the economics change...

Simply put, the physical shapes the ideational, but the ideational only exists in terms of the physical, in terms of production and economics. Hence the phrase "dialectical materialism."

There's been a pretty wide gap between post-structuralist and postmodern thinking and Marxism, largely because most types of poststructuralism and postmodernism consider languages, cultures, ideas, philosophies, etc. as completely separate from the means of production. Post-structuralists and postmodernists often look at aspects of the superstructure-- particular discourses or works-- without looking at how the base informs the superstructure.

But if the superstructure itself becomes manifest, if it becomes something like a biosphere, it could take on a life of its own, and that would in turn change the relationship between the base and the superstructure in a pretty fundamental way...

As the Tachikomas said of the comparison between biospheres and gene/memes, the same principles would apply and act on both the macro- (superstructural) and micro- (base) levels.

As above, so below.

It sounds like Marxism, but it ain't Marxism, if that makes sense.

Basically, if I'm following the argument, Kuze is saying that the Net was devised as what Marxists call a means of production-- in this case, a tool for data storage, transfer, and exchange-- for an existing social order. It's served that purpose, but the Net is creating economic and social conditions which conflict with or call into question the original system's social relations and values. And it's become a actual manifestation of the superstructure-- of the cultural, philosophical, and social spheres. Now that people can connect and communicate on an ideational level-- now that abstract sorts of information such as culture, etc. are manifest-- the nature of the superstructure is changing. The transmission of memes is accelerated. The manner of memetic transmission and infection is different; what was abstract has become literal, with ideas acting like computer viruses. What had been a concept or mental framework-- the more abstract part of the dialectic-- is "real" in a way it hasn't been. As a result, the relationship between the base and the superstructure-- between modes of production and the cultural and social spheres-- is changing, and the potential for truly radical social change has arisen within and through the Net.

A true technological singularity, with the revolution as a mere taste, a foreshadowing, a minor tremor before the earthquake...

Animals sensing and anticipating a catastrophe that's yet to arrive and is unavoidable, and that they perhaps desire on some basic level.

Something that resonates with their natures...

(Notice how this relates to the Big G's manipulation of data to bring about accelerated change in the material world... Our favorite peanut-headed baddy is trying to manipulate the superstructure to change the base, while Kuze sees his revolution as the embodiment of unplanned changes brought on by superstructure. The positions are dialectically related, and as Lightice has suggested elsewhere, there's a kind of feedback loop, a two-way memetic contamination, that's taking place. Both men have pretty much claimed that they're manifesting or acting as agents/embodiments of history... So they're both claiming that they're acting on behalf of the superstructure, even when they use or tamper with the superstructure. And if you take the discussions about heroes into account, the show's also implying that the Net is acting as something like a manifestation of Jung's collective unconscious. The Tachikomas were, at one point in "Pat.", basically discussing the Net not just in terms of synchronizing or sharing conscious information but as a sort of literal and externalized collective unconscious or perhaps subconscious mind for humans, and they were exploring what these sorts of things mean when humans use words like "individual" and "collective". I think both men believe they understand the nature of the change to the superstructure-- to the nature of information and data exchange-- more than they do...)

For Kuze, the revolution is connected with the broader social shifts, with a foundational change to a technologically-based society. His revolution will simply be the first manifestation of the broader social change. It will precede and perhaps guide the change. (The argument seems to resemble Marx's "dictatorship of the proletariat" or Lenin's "revolutionary vanguard" idea, although Kuze is suggesting that the superstructure and base are more or less in tandem.)

Or I could be wrong. Someone who's seen the last three episodes of the series might tell me I'm full of doodoo, and Kuze's spiel to Aramaki's brother doesn't suggest any of this. Laughing Laughing Laughing

P.S. I don't think it would've been a smart move to put up sandbags etc. It would create the impression that the JSDF anticipates a prolonged siege within its own borders, and that's hardly the image the government would want to project in a nuclear crisis with global media coverage... Having soldiers stand there makes it look like the government's actually doing-- or is on the verge of doing-- something. The soldiers are expendable; they signed on knowing they might get shot. And spin is everything in the GitS world...
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douyang



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

P.S. I don't think it would've been a smart move to put up sandbags etc. It would create the impression that the JSDF anticipates a prolonged siege within its own borders, and that's hardly the image the government would want to project in a nuclear crisis with global media coverage... Having soldiers stand there makes it look like the government's actually doing-- or is on the verge of doing-- something. The soldiers are expendable; they signed on knowing they might get shot. And spin is everything in the GitS world...


I could easily spin that the other way by pointing out that if shooting does break out and there are large numbers of GSDF casualties due to the troops' complete lack of protection, there would be a storm of outrage against the government by both civilians and the military.

Plus it makes no sense if your goal is to put down the revolt with a minimum of casualties (or at least a minimum of your own casualties).
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