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The gynoid - Haraway's viewpoint

 
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marto_motoko



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 536
Location: Ni'ihama

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:54 pm    Post subject: The gynoid - Haraway's viewpoint Reply with quote

Simply: Discuss this oddity of life.

Why do I say life? Perhaps because a soul is what makes something living. The dolls had souls. Yet they self-destructed. Some would say she comitted suicide. Which do you think is the appropriate one? If we don't call something that moves, breaks, and has a conciousness living, then would that be bigotry and blindness? Or perhaps we have something that allows for us to argue the manner of living?


Well, come on my fellow thinkers, throw some suggestions at me.
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sord



Joined: 31 Dec 2005
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Location: U.S. MO

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, part of the problem here is what one defines as a soul. Is it something spiritual, or is it the embodyment of ones personalities, memories, experiances, etc. That said, GitS tends to follow the latter.

The thing is, in GitS many ghosts, or souls, have been put on a digital plain, and that makes them more succeptable to alter and corupt. When your brain has been completely cyborized, your memories, your personalty, it can all be altered via a ghost-hack. In some cases wiped clean and replaced. From that point of view, it seems like putting enough work into an empty cyber brain will yeild a ghost, or that giving a fresh AI many many experiances and variables, it to can obtain a soul.

Asuming that the sould/ghost can be treated as such, than it's just as likely advanced AIs, such as those in the series, can indeed obtain a soul. However, the ability of humans to even have technology at such levels in currenlty nill. While they don't have fully efficient working nanobots in the show, they do have nanochips, and shrinking down that much leads for efficiency so great our current technology comes no where near it. Not to mention that the people in the show would need a much better explanation of the brain and neural systems physical functions then we currently have. Ironically, since GitS was originally made during (I am pretty sure anyways) the cold war, it's not set to far away, most of the stuff occurs in the early and mid 2030s. Asuming some apocalypse doesn't occur, we are very close to reaching that time period and no where near there advanced technology as far as the human mind and body go.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that no matter what we apply to this topic, it shouldn't be given to heavily a status on reality until our reality is more closely parralell to that of the stories. Granted, that shouldn't deter any of you from trying to figure it out anyways for the sake of the GitS universe.
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marto_motoko



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 536
Location: Ni'ihama

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I guess what I'm trying to say is that no matter what we apply to this topic, it shouldn't be given to heavily a status on reality until our reality is more closely parralell to that of the stories. Granted, that shouldn't deter any of you from trying to figure it out anyways for the sake of the GitS universe.


Very good point. However, how far do you think we actually are from reaching that point of technological advancement? Concider the latter or technological evolution. It's no different a matter than the population's growth. The rate it grows in only keeps on doubling.


In my opinion, the first film's technology will be within reach in no more than a decade, or not to much more. However, I suppose that's simply a loose speculation.
:)

marto_motoko
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sord



Joined: 31 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you are indeed correct about technology rising exponentially, since every new technology quickens the pace of making a new one. We do have some similarities compared to that of GitS, we've even come close to the personal camoflauge. I believe it's Japan that's producing it.

It's kind of hard to estimate the time, as there could be one major break through in a certain area that can be used in many diffrent areas to speed their processes up. And then some technology tends to crawls at a slow pace.

Either way though, we still need much more knowledge in biological matters. It seems to me though that one of the biggest obstacles seems to be the mass of people who believe studies that can greatly advance modern biological technology are unethical. After all, there is still muscles in a cyborg, but they are synthetically grown to be much more dense than that of your average humans, giving you more strength with less space. I believe it could be possbile that research into altering stem cells (both new and adult) could lead to discoveries in this area. Unfortunately thanks to peoples belief on ethical violations, this is severely slowed. Hopefully now that it's been realized embilical chords carry them, the process can be sped up without all the argument of fetuses (geesh)

I still would not look to america's research for this. In fact, the number one place to watch for biological advances is (drum roll!) Singapore. Their country is pouring millions (actually I think billions) into their research, most of it with little restriction (still no human cloning of course.) You don't have to take my word for it though, you can take Time's Magazines.

Quote:

Stem Cell Central
American researchers--fed up with politics getting in the way of science--are packing up and heading to Singapore, which is delighted to have them
By BRYAN WALSH/ SINGAPORE
Jul. 31, 2006

For a serial kidnapper, Philip Yeo looks harmless enough. But to hear some people tell it, he's a dangerous man. Over the past six years, Yeo has been roaming the world, trailing talented scientists in Washington; San Diego; Palo Alto, Calif.; Edinburgh and elsewhere, and spiriting them back to his home country of Singapore. Like any proud collector, Yeo never tires of ticking off his most prized trophies: former National Cancer Institute star Edison Liu, American husband-and-wife team Nancy Jenkins and Neal Copeland, British cancer researcher David Lane. "I'm a people snatcher," he says unashamedly.

What distinguishes Yeo from other kidnappers, of course, is that his targets go willingly. They happily relocate to Singapore's new 2 million-sq.-ft. Biopolis research center, where they can concentrate on one thing they can't always study so easily back home: stem cells. Just last week President George W. Bush used the first veto of his presidency to block a congressional action that would have lifted his 2001 ban on federal funding for most stem-cell research, ensuring that cell lines will remain scarce and money short at research centers lacking the state funding or private wealth to thumb their nose at dollars from Washington.

While Bush's action infuriated U.S. scientists, political catfights aren't the only things that make stem-cell research a challenge. The science is complex, the cost is high, and the efforts are scattered all over the world. Enter Singapore, which has begun offering itself as a combination sanctuary and think tank for scientists in the field.

The idea that buttoned-up Singapore, better known for punitive caning and a onetime ban on chewing gum, should emerge as a center of enlightenment seems unlikely. But the government sees both scientific and fiscal promise in the biomed field. This month, Singapore announced a doubling of its R&D budget, to $8.2 billion over the next five years, making it a regional research hub, particularly in stem cells. That's attractive to frustrated American scientists--and worrisome to people who want to see the U.S. retain its scientific edge.

"I think there is a risk of a brain drain, and we are seeing it," says Christopher Thomas Scott, executive director of the Stanford Program on Stem Cells in Society. Yeo, for one, is blunt about taking advantage of the American political climate. "I go to the U.S., and I tell those scientists, Come to Singapore and finish your work," he says.

Singapore's leadership in stem-cell research is not new. In 1994, Ariff Bongso, a Sri Lanka--born embryologist at the National University of Singapore, became the first person to isolate human embryonic stem cells, and in 2002 he discovered a way to grow stem-cell lines without the use of animal cells, which could make it easier to find clinical uses in human beings. Bongso achieved those breakthroughs nearly alone, but that would not be the case anymore, thanks to Biopolis, the government's $300 million bet on bioscience.

A group of seven asymmetrical buildings with sci-fi names like Nanos and Proteos, all connected by transparent sky bridges, Biopolis is meant to be a self-enclosed science city, housing government research institutes, biotech start-ups and global drug companies. At the ground level, researchers from some 50 countries meet and mingle over spicy laksa noodles, Philly cheesesteaks and German beer, discussing projects in English, the most widely spoken language in the multiethnic city. Inside, the well-stocked labs positively gleam. Ng Huck Hui, a team leader at the Genome Institute of Singapore, points to an expensive array of semiconductors. "We bought that three years ago, so by our standards it's pretty old," he says. "Might be time to get a new one." Says Lane, the Edinburgh expat who moved to Singapore in 2004 to head the Institute of Molecular and Cell Biology: "The funding here is extremely good. You're in scientific heaven."

And it's only getting better. Late last year the government launched the Singapore Stem Cell Consortium, chaired by Cambridge University--based stem-cell scientist Roger Pederson, which will set aside $45 million for research in the field over the next three years. Money also comes from university grants and offshore organizations like the U.S.-based Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation. The diabetes group has helped fund biotech start-up ES Cell International (ESI), home to Briton--and now Singapore resident--Alan Colman, who was part of the British team that cloned Dolly the sheep in 1996. ESI manufactures its own embryonic-stem-cell lines and is working on shaping those cells into insulin-producing pancreatic tissue and cardiac muscle, which could be given to patients suffering from diabetes or heart disease. It's exactly the kind of potentially profitable research Singapore wants, and the company hopes to begin clinical trials next year. As with most stem-cell work at Biopolis, the focus at ESI is on building a broad business. Rather than designing patient-specific stem cells, grown from the very people who would later use them, ESI wants to create an inventory of more generalized cells that could be matched to a population of patients--the stem-cell equivalent of a blood bank.

"I think Singapore punches well above its weight in this area," says Colman. "That's why I'm here." Another reason is Singapore's liberal regulations, which allow stem cells to be cultured from embryos up to 14 days old, although reproductive cloning is strictly illegal.

Given its small size, Singapore will never really threaten the U.S.'s overall biomedical muscle, nor is it trying to. But it's impossible to witness the buzz at Biopolis or meet scientists who have chosen Southeast Asia over Stanford and not wonder how much the U.S. could achieve in stem-cell research if it were as science mad as this city-state of 4.4 million. For all the hundreds of millions of dollars Singapore has devoted to high-tech lab equipment and recruiting top scientists from around the world, it is spending just as much to educate a homegrown core of young Singaporean scientists to continue the work. Until they come of age, Yeo will be just as happy to come shopping for talent in the U.S. And as long as the stem-cell debate stumbles on in the U.S., American scientists will be just as happy to go.
link

not entirely sure if the link will work, as I have acess to the Time Archives since I have a subscription. This isn't necasarilly new news, but it's only one or two issues back so I would find it suprising they would have restricted access to the article. Granted, so long as you trust I'm not lying I can look up whatever topics on Time Magazine you want.
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sord



Joined: 31 Dec 2005
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Location: U.S. MO

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sord wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to say is that no matter what we apply to this topic, it shouldn't be given to heavily a status on reality until our reality is more closely parralell to that of the stories. Granted, that shouldn't deter any of you from trying to figure it out anyways for the sake of the GitS universe.


In regards to when I posted this earlier, I later realized that there is a second reason why one could think about this stuff even if it can not yet be applied. The fact of further understanding yourself. Since hypothetical situations haven't or don't happen, you don't normally think on them. However, by assuming that it will, can, or did happen, your can take view points. These veiw point are just that, view points and opinions, not facts, and hence apart of you. Even if they have been influenced by an outside will, you still retain them and use them as your own, so they are still apart of you.

I'm not saying that everyone should go soul searching though Laughing Just adding to a statement, that's all. Besides, you may find things you don't like, Twisted Evil
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GhostLine



Joined: 19 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the story, the Gynpoid did what it did because it had a dubbed ghost, but Haraway made some interesting points about the effect of Humanizing the inanimate or animal. The Dog Whisperer guy discusses many animal misbehaviors ar a result of humans punishing/rewarding them on a human level and not on the dominant/submissive level that dogs require. Same may go for robots. They perform tasks, but asking them to perform more than that--such as developing relationships--go beyond their programming. If A.I. becomes a reality, then how will dolls see themselves when they aren't human asked to fulfill the human emotional need?
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sord



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

either
A: run an emotional sim
B: refuse or object to comply
C: fry itself with the paradox
D: emotions aren't necassarily only allowed by humans so the term "human emotions" is rather inaccurate and it is possable that other life forms (inlcluding A.I.) can have equally complex emotions thus making the original quetsion pointless if the AI were just as complex as the human.
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Freitag



Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 583
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhostLine wrote:
In the story, the Gynpoid did what it did because it had a dubbed ghost, but Haraway made some interesting points about the effect of Humanizing the inanimate or animal. The Dog Whisperer guy discusses many animal misbehaviors ar a result of humans punishing/rewarding them on a human level and not on the dominant/submissive level that dogs require. Same may go for robots. They perform tasks, but asking them to perform more than that--such as developing relationships--go beyond their programming. If A.I. becomes a reality, then how will dolls see themselves when they aren't human asked to fulfill the human emotional need?


'Sense of self' is the part that jumps out at me from all of these discussions. And to that extent I might alter the Turing Test from being able to fool a human into thinking you are a human into finding if the intelligence can get bored.

If it can't even consider what boredom is, then it is simply a collection of calculator routines that might simulate a living being well, but it is not a thing with a Ghost.

Think about the sniper assist module that was being tested at Section 9 (the one that the Tachkomas linked with after the test) that had no I/O methods. It was clearly frustrated at not being able to perform well because of what it 'considered' to be bad input. This might only be a Ghost on par with my house cat (which frequently tries to delete input - all over my carpet) but I'd say that it counts.

But those helper robots that all look like women - although they interact in a way that is far more human-like. Ghostless dolls.

As for asking a doll to fulfill a role for which it is not equipped. Assuming a good enough learning machine, then it can act correctly, but still not have a Ghost. It is the ones that have Ghosts that will struggle with not grasping what you want from them. Like a child that you know CAN do something, and maybe even wants to do it, but just does not have the capacity to do it.

I'm still waiting for the next episode of Time of Eve to come out because they are exploring that very topic. Robots that are physically indistinguishable from humans and are clearly expressing creativity in how to solve problems (by setting up similar circumstances to explore choices) You sorta have to watch it to grasp it. Next episode (4) comes out next month.
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