Well, I say! I thought people would be sick of religion because of all the posts I made elsewhere, only to discover this whole thread about it! I must say, I am a little bit sad and dissappointed to see the kinds of responses there are... And I agree that there is a lot of poorly thought out logic in some of the posts. But it's funny because I found so many different beliefs that I used to hold at different stages of my life in this thread, and it feels so weird to hear all these different people saying them. I don't think I'll really contribute as I don't see a place where I can, but I did want to comment on several random points:
I don't see why you think a world without gods is devoid of value. What could be of more value than a world we make for ourselves, with our own values and our own aims?
Hmm... I think it was said a couple of times but in less straight-forward ways, but isn't the world of gods that we make sort of like making a world with our own values, aims and morals? I mean, if people made up the concept of god (which, if you don't believe in such things, usually means that you think that it's something that people made up), then they made it up to reresent all the things that they believed at a given time, and it changes as their society changes unless there is something unusual stopping it from doing so (like, "On pain of death/unishment, you shall not change this doctrine!"). The point is that no, the world is not valueless without it, but with it it can provide a lot of the value that many people need who still are unable to find it... Actually, even if they can acknowledge the value of the world without it, a belief in it nevertheless can enhance the value of life for them. The problem, as you are leading towards in that statement, is when a belief in the world's value is only through God and thus detracts from what value all humans can find without it. Sort of like a helpful concept now getting in the way. I got angry about this too from time to time, particularly at a person who showed up and posted here a couple of years ago claiming that once you "find God", then you will be good (the logic is just sooo... gah); and also because some theologians believe that conscience, the ability to tell right from wrong, is a gift bestowed only by God (or alternatively, that conscience is innate, but that one's ability to use it -what was the term for that... syneuresis?- is God-given). Which is a ridiculous explanation for morality, however you cut it; and totally takes away from the great things that people can do. Yeah Emmanuel Kant, I'm chastising you. Those are some terrible ideas... had you no faith in your fellow man without God being his pilot?
What is true or false are the effects these ideas have on people. I could have a hat, as I wear this hat probability has it that a course of lucky things happen to me. I then believe that it is the hat which is causing this luckiness. The next day I wear the hat again and I feel happy and therefore more confident and with my confidence may come greater happiness.
If that was a part of someone then I would love it as though it were one of their endearing personal quirks (as long as the hat didn't say, "Kill all who wear a different kind of hat or who don't wear hats at all"). I would not want to take that quirk away from them unless it was seriously doing them some bad, and I would not take everyone else's hats away from them just because I saw some that made me think that all hats were bad. I wouldn't take somebody's precious and innocent, child-like beliefs away from them, but I might expand their horizons by introducing them to more great ideas, and let them decide for themselves whether or not to wear the hat and how to wear it. I believe in kindness and gentleness (when I'm not rudely making fun of people
).
Just because you don't live in another person's country doesn't mean that you can't understand what they go through, does it? Certainly there is some merit to saying that "we must talk from experience," but it's also very limiting to think that way. There's something to be said for informed empathic understanding.
Yeah, certainly; empathy is very important. It bridges the vast differences between us. I have to say though, I really didn't know anything real about the USA before I went there and made it a part of my life. I don't think I could have possibly understood the country and why many people thought the various things they might tend to there, until I was forced to live there by circumstances. In fact, I would have avoided it my whole life and never wanted to know it better (though bizarrely I always said I wanted to live in New York as a child, because I thought it was like London but further away and therefore more exotic and interesting). But because I made friends with Americans and even fell in love with one (while in England), I had no choice but to get to know them better and understand them- otherwise, how could I be so rude and shun something that is a part of what makes my friend the person that they are, like their upbringing or culture? Now, I daresay I am still not really liking much of America and its ways that much (sorry to all the people from over here reading, I know there's a bunch of you... some of you may not like my country either or our ways, or perhaps feel that way about a different country), but I at least feel like I can understand them better. It's been kind of enlightening, learning things like the phrase, "as American as apple pie" (we think of apple pie as being a very English dessert!), learning what a burrito is and that there's a huge Mexican culture (I had NO idea! I was like, "Jeff, why are there so many people speaking Spanish here?", learning that so many people are
obsessed with this weird thing that
they call 'football' (we call it American football, and for some reason I just assumed that people in the states did the same, but duh of course they wouldn't), learning that people think of turkey as something traditionally eaten at Thanksgiving, and not at Christmas... and that a few people are so funny that they even think that the rest of the world celebrates Thanksgiving, too! I also learnt that politics is a bit like sports- incredibly polarised and a case of "go my team! Blue!/Red!"... and then that actually most educated Americans don't believe this is how politics here normally is or should be, it's just been that way for the last four years. Wow! Learnt lots of stuff! Most importantly, you guys are completely not stupid! We like to call you that occassionally (okay all the time) because of your president and US foreign policy, and because we stubbornly dislike the way you talk or the way you spell things, but the country is packed with wonderfully intelligent souls, really. I can get annoyed with a lot of "American" things, but if I leave with one thing it's that I can never think you're all idiots ever again or be manipulated by my own cultural bias to make "stupid American" jokes. Now I don't fit in back home because I'm always telling people off for doing that (got one friend who does it just to annoy me, and I'm like, "Don't talk about my friends that way! " Ah, but she has a US equivalent in my friend who delights in going on about the English in front of me... I think it'd be funny to get them both going at the same time
Well, the point is that if I didn't have this kind of experience with real Americans rather than just my bias, I think I'd be standing up here having a go at people for their anti-religious sentiments and completely unable to believe what their problem was, rather than realising why people felt that way (because of nutters in the religious right being the main aspect of religion that people know about; because of anti-evolutionists, because of jihadists...). I mean, how can I expect any of you to understand the world I know, when so few would have experience of it? For us, that kind of thing was so far away... I mean, I first heard about the push for creationism in America in a history class (taught by a man who was well-travelled around the US), and we all laughed at it in shock and horror as another example of "stupid Americans" and all the weird things about the country... like capital punishment...
You know, I hate to go on about this cultural racism and stereotyping, but I think it is important that we know the kinds of awful things we think about each other's cultures. Jeff's friends wanted to know how bad my teeth were because I was English. Huh? There isn't an epidemic of bad teeth (or bad cooking) in the UK! But we were always told that Americans were obsessed with having a fake white smile, and though at first there were so many more whitening products in the US (recently the UK got more into it though, I think), I really have to say that I
haven't noticed weird, fake, shiny white smiles everywhere! Well, it is good to know these things, and what is true and what isn't, otherwise you can't experience getting past them enough that you can be friends. "Yah peanut-butter loving, jell
o-eatin', SUV (space wagon) lovin' weirdoes who pronounce Notre Dame 'noder dayme', Moscow 'moss-cow' and Iraq 'eye- rahhk'... And spell everything with a z(ed) ('zeeeee!')!"
my justification of the death penalty is basically 1)justice 2)detterrant(sp, early in the morning)
I feel uncomfortable with the death penalty, and it bothers me to be in a country that endorses it (USA, though actually six states). I am not a compassionate enough person to feel that some people don't deserve to die (I'd like to be more Christ-like, but I just can't and it doesn't feel entirely possible for me in the world we live in)... In fact, I know that if somebody did something terrible to me (like try to murder me or torture me) I would believe that it was my personal right to kill them, even if it wasn't my legal right. That sounds terrible, but it is very human. Not only that, but if you were the victim you might feel like it was your obligation to destroy the evil you faced by your own hands there and then, so that it couldn't harm anybody weaker than you. However, the conflicts of emotions and desire for revenge will be what they are within us, and the law should show some compassion to those who harbour such things and cannot stop themselves from acting on them, because they cannot be blamed for being put in that position (I'm talking about really serious things, not just "You dissed my music so I'll kiiill youuu, scumbag!" attitudes that the local hoods might have). And I believe that the death penalty should
not be legal. Like I said, I'm not compassionate enough to not think that some people deserve it, but I believe that having the death penalty brings out something barbaric in "normal" people; negative and damaging feelings that cause more damage than the situation already has. You cannot have the state gruesomely execute or torture people on your behalf... It is twisted.
The people who have done the most terrible things should be forced to live out the rest of their natural lifespans in a cell, given the chance to face it in their minds until the day they die; for better or ill. They should have the chance to develope a conscience over it, and to learn to live with that. Those that don't care should be made to care, even if that means giving them the mental help that they need to be whole enough to realise that they should care about it. And those that are pure evil and just don't give a damn can rot with their pure evil, away from the eyes of society where they cannot hurt a soul. To end their life gives them a way out. I believe that life should mean for their whole life, not just 12-20 years; and I think it is something that all criminals who have comitted inhumane acts like the kidnap and torture innocent people, rape, cruel murder, genocide, etc. should be given if you can irrefutably prove that these things were done by them. This is because they have turned; it proves they are a danger to society and people who need to be protected from them should be put first. I also believe that more crimes need to be defined as being a mental illness, and that say, people who commit rape (though not the poor idiots that get classifed as rapists because they slept with someone under the age of 16 even though it was consensual- e.g. teachers and their 15 year old students) should undergo mental help for life as well as be imprisoned. I think the law should be as hard as it needs to be to guarantee the protection of innocent people from these types of criminals once they've been identified by comitting one of the said crimes, but that the people we put in charge of implementing the law (i.e. prison staff, police officers, etcetera) should be compassionate and just people (and not the sadistic prison guards of the movies and sadly sometimes real life). Those two things are very important to get down. And as it is, our societies largely do neither on of them correctly, letting serial rapists get out after 5 years in jail at a time so that they can destroy several more people, while letting barbaric acts of cruelty go on behind the closed doors of many prisons. Hmm, our justice should be one that heals the evils of the world by gently trying to understand and repair evil minds put away from the world's tired eyes, while simultaneously recognising that you csn never let these people back out into the world, where they can have the opportunity to hurt innocents again. Even this would not be a popular view though, from either side (humanistic rights advocates or die-hard "Kill the bastards!" mindsets). What instead then? Well if you are going to keep current UK and US laws as they are (I don't know other countries very well), then for one certain kind of crime the least you could do is castrate them, which is sort of gory but practical. They should do that anyway. I think it is an appropriate for someone that obviously gets wrong enjoyment out of it, to prevent them from ever having such a thing again; and if you are going to release people in 5 years so that they can commit the crime again, well it makes it a lot more difficult for them to do so, really. Not sure what you would do to women who commit that crime, but that doesn't happen very often in society because it is harder for them to do for obvious anatomical reasons. Er gee, that was gross; sorry for the small crime and punishment rant, none of what I said will ever happen of course because people are too extreme one way or the other, so dont get too upset about all of what I've said. It's just in a world where I was in charge of making the laws, has no bearing on reality unless you want to elect me ruler of the Earth. Please do. I mean, please don't.
I think my heart would be broken in that job.
Err... yeah. Carry on with lively discussion.