Some of you here seem to have a grasp, or even a fluency of Japanese.
Would I be right in thinking one or two of you have lived or are living in Japan?
Can any of you with expierence learning it as a foreign language give me some advice as to how to approach it? Maybe a good book for learning Japanese? Would it be a comparatively hard language to learn, and can the written and spoken be separately learned? I.E. can you learn to speak japanese with phonetically spelt japanese words rather than the symbols.. (I've no idea how wrong i may be on this)
Anyway, though I've never been good at languages, I've now a personal interest in learning Japanese. Not alone from the Anime, but also from the aspect of a truely foreign culture. In my course I'm studying, we cover alot of business organisational theory which is flooded with history of ford-ism, post-fordism and western thinking. All the while refering to Japan as a case-in-point of a better way to do things. Though we've covered things like lean systems and Just-in-time methods, the Japanese structures are largly unexamined. Also, news and pulications here rarely go that far abroad, leaving Japan and that entire region largely in the dark. Also studying international business law, i've done some research into negotiations and dispute resolution with international trade between local companies and state involved companies in japan. All the while leading to greater opening of japanese markets to western companies.
It will be more important I think to have a personal skill in Japanese in the future than say french, where in the EU, most people speak English anyway and it is the language of trade here.
Japanese and HTML.. the languages
Moderator: sonic
Japanese and HTML.. the languages
Last edited by james_sb on Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jeni Nielsen
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Resident Japanese expert at your service. ^_^
Depending on what you want you can get by without learning kana or kanji (Japanese writing), but if you ever want to live there you'll have to learn how to read Japanese.
Generally speaking when people ask me this question I start off by saying that Japanese takes a lot of time and effort to start to learn. Once you get beyond the basics, reading, writing, the essence of particles, learning how to think backwards, you can move along a lot faster than you might think. Japanese grammar, unlike Spanish, is pretty straightforward. There are only 3 irregular verbs. You just have to be willing to devote time to study, and you should be ok.
I can reccomend a few textbooks, but it's really much easier to start off with a class. That way your teacher can set you straight about any misconceptions you might have about the language. I started self-teaching myself Japanese, but the classes I took in high school really were lifesavers. Once you get the basics, there are a number of textbooks out there that are really great. I recommend anything that the Japan Times puts out. (They've done a few textbooks that I really liked that are out of print now, but you might be able to find the Genki textbooks if you look for them).
I also recommend, if you're really serious about learning how to interact with people in Japanese, to go and study in Japan. Even though I only stayed there for 5 weeks, living in Japan helped me improve my Japanese skills 10 fold. If you're seriously going to study you have to go.
I hope that helps. if you have any questions feel free to PM me. Or post them here. Why not. ^_^
Depending on what you want you can get by without learning kana or kanji (Japanese writing), but if you ever want to live there you'll have to learn how to read Japanese.
Generally speaking when people ask me this question I start off by saying that Japanese takes a lot of time and effort to start to learn. Once you get beyond the basics, reading, writing, the essence of particles, learning how to think backwards, you can move along a lot faster than you might think. Japanese grammar, unlike Spanish, is pretty straightforward. There are only 3 irregular verbs. You just have to be willing to devote time to study, and you should be ok.
I can reccomend a few textbooks, but it's really much easier to start off with a class. That way your teacher can set you straight about any misconceptions you might have about the language. I started self-teaching myself Japanese, but the classes I took in high school really were lifesavers. Once you get the basics, there are a number of textbooks out there that are really great. I recommend anything that the Japan Times puts out. (They've done a few textbooks that I really liked that are out of print now, but you might be able to find the Genki textbooks if you look for them).
I also recommend, if you're really serious about learning how to interact with people in Japanese, to go and study in Japan. Even though I only stayed there for 5 weeks, living in Japan helped me improve my Japanese skills 10 fold. If you're seriously going to study you have to go.
I hope that helps. if you have any questions feel free to PM me. Or post them here. Why not. ^_^
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AlphonseVanWorden
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- Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:10 am
While I don't speak or write the language, I am sort of familiar with Japanese culture, so I thought I'd offer a suggestion.
If you're interested in the cultural or organizational background or in religious or political matters, you might want to find a copy of The Japanese Mind: Essentials of Japanese Philosophy and Culture, edited by Charles A. Moore. The book's a collection of fourteen papers presented at the East-West Philosophers' Conferences in 1939, 1949, 1959, and 1964. The pieces are by different Japanese specialists (as opposed to Westerners) and cover topics ranging from legal, economic, and political theory to Shinto and Buddhist traditions, from Japanese notions of individual identity and group dynamics to Japanese history. Nice appendix with Romanized Japanese names and concepts (i.e. the English spellings) and the corresponding kanji characters, too.
The collection is a bit dated- it's copyrighted 1968- but it's a good introduction, provides good background information, and will prepare you for further studies. (More recent works, excluding textbooks, assume some degree of familiarity with their subjects- or present the material with either a clearly Western bias or an Orientalist outsiders' fetishizing of Japan's "exotic" culture and practices.) It's pretty easy reading, too.
The book's out of print, but you should be able to purchase a cheap copy online or find a copy through your library.
And follow Jeni's advice, of course.
I agree with her. Taking classes in other languages and/or cultures is helpful. And living in a country other than one's own is useful, instructive, and fun. Provided, of course, that one can afford to do so.
I'd hate to read about a certain Irish gaijin being rented out to businessmen and politicians by the yakuza to cover his debts...
If you're interested in the cultural or organizational background or in religious or political matters, you might want to find a copy of The Japanese Mind: Essentials of Japanese Philosophy and Culture, edited by Charles A. Moore. The book's a collection of fourteen papers presented at the East-West Philosophers' Conferences in 1939, 1949, 1959, and 1964. The pieces are by different Japanese specialists (as opposed to Westerners) and cover topics ranging from legal, economic, and political theory to Shinto and Buddhist traditions, from Japanese notions of individual identity and group dynamics to Japanese history. Nice appendix with Romanized Japanese names and concepts (i.e. the English spellings) and the corresponding kanji characters, too.
The collection is a bit dated- it's copyrighted 1968- but it's a good introduction, provides good background information, and will prepare you for further studies. (More recent works, excluding textbooks, assume some degree of familiarity with their subjects- or present the material with either a clearly Western bias or an Orientalist outsiders' fetishizing of Japan's "exotic" culture and practices.) It's pretty easy reading, too.
The book's out of print, but you should be able to purchase a cheap copy online or find a copy through your library.
And follow Jeni's advice, of course.
I agree with her. Taking classes in other languages and/or cultures is helpful. And living in a country other than one's own is useful, instructive, and fun. Provided, of course, that one can afford to do so.
I'd hate to read about a certain Irish gaijin being rented out to businessmen and politicians by the yakuza to cover his debts...
Such is the soul in the body: this world is like her little turf of grass, and the heaven o'er our heads, like her looking-glass, only gives us a miserable knowledge of the small compass of our prison. - Bosola, in John Webster's The Duchess of Malfi
That sounds a bit complicated. Essence of particles is a concept i've never heard of before. And thinking backwards could take some time.Jeni Nielsen wrote: the essence of particles, learning how to think backwards,
Ideally what i'd hoped was that I could train myself over summer (After I finished these damn finals
) And use the anime, initially with subtitles, and then just japanese to get a grip with understanding and maybe then talking. I realise it's a falicy to try learn a language without the written aspect, but if I could get an ability to understand it would be something I'd very much like to have. A class would be a great idea, but for me it's out of the question. It would only be available in college, and I've gone past that stage 3years ago. Couldn't afford a proper class in town right now (the poor student) and wounldn't have the time for the assignments to keep up. Going to Japan, in the long-term could be done. In the mean time. i'd like to get some holding of the language, enought to enjoy anime as a measure.
Alphonse, that book sounds like interesting reading. I'll be looking that up after exams. Always a good idea to get the back history. Cheers.
And, unless there is a real section 9, I ain't gonna be taking money from any Yakuza.. Wouldn't have the stomach for it. So no need to worry there. Hoping when it gets to the stage that i get to use the language with people, i'll be on the other side of the law.
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AlphonseVanWorden
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And, unless there is a real section 9, I ain't gonna be taking money from any Yakuza.. Wouldn't have the stomach for it. So no need to worry there. Hoping when it gets to the stage that i get to use the language with people, i'll be on the other side of the law.
Good idea. Taking anything from an organized crime syndicate is a bad idea. It's a gift that keeps on giving... back to the criminals.
Good luck on the exams, and I hope your study of Japanese culture and language goes well.
Such is the soul in the body: this world is like her little turf of grass, and the heaven o'er our heads, like her looking-glass, only gives us a miserable knowledge of the small compass of our prison. - Bosola, in John Webster's The Duchess of Malfi
i took japanese back in high school.
i've forgotten much of it, but i still know
all the hirigana, some katakana, and
pieces of kanji.
unlike english, japanese has little exceptions
to the rule--if they exist at all.
i still have all my texts (from U. of Hawaii)
and hope to make the time to pick it back up.
i've forgotten much of it, but i still know
all the hirigana, some katakana, and
pieces of kanji.
unlike english, japanese has little exceptions
to the rule--if they exist at all.
i still have all my texts (from U. of Hawaii)
and hope to make the time to pick it back up.
I memorized a few Hiragana syllables on this page (seems to be down right now, but it was always a bit sluggish). I didn't continue though, since there's just so much else to do, such as watching anime and reading webcomics and reading books and play computer games... yeah, I figured that I don't have to learn Japanese to keep myself occupied.
Recommended cyberpunk:
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Tonks_kittygoth
- Posts: 221
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- Location: The dark dark woods where the kitten monsters live....or happy la la land, my summer home.
How bout German?
I heard that is pretty hard, but Im going to attempt it for my grad. exam transtating bit. Only have to learn writen, not spoken. Plus then I can read all the cool romantic and expressionist stuff.
My husband did Japanese for 4 years in college. He still couldnt even read a kids book. He found out they had a really bad text, so that could have been the problem.
I started Japanese for like a minute, then ran away.
I heard that is pretty hard, but Im going to attempt it for my grad. exam transtating bit. Only have to learn writen, not spoken. Plus then I can read all the cool romantic and expressionist stuff.
My husband did Japanese for 4 years in college. He still couldnt even read a kids book. He found out they had a really bad text, so that could have been the problem.
I started Japanese for like a minute, then ran away.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man.
Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as
one wants to live and not die, so do other
creatures." - His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as
one wants to live and not die, so do other
creatures." - His Holiness The Dalai Lama
I don't know how you lot manage to learn Japanese, I've tried so many times to learn to speak japanese now but have got nowhere. I can speak fairly fluent french, german, BSL and some russian and Bahasa-indonesia; I just don't know what it is about trying to learn Japanese just makes my mind pop. 
/me has stupid brain
/me has stupid brain
Joseph Cambell wrote:Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths.
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Jeni Nielsen
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I respect anyone for being fluent in any language. My Spanish was barely passable. We got to the subjunctive tense and my teacher couldn't give a good explanation to save her life. She was like "well you use it sometimes. And sometimes you don't"Elmo wrote:I don't know how you lot manage to learn Japanese, I've tried so many times to learn to speak japanese now but have got nowhere. I can speak fairly fluent french, german, BSL and some russian and Bahasa-indonesia; I just don't know what it is about trying to learn Japanese just makes my mind pop.
/me has stupid brain
Japanese is something I love. I have a passion for learning all the nitpicky kanji and learning how to take sentences apart like a puzzle. It takes a passion for it, I suppose. I think though that once you start thinking in Western or Romantic lanugages then you might be making it more difficult for yourself to learn Japanese. The grammar is completely different.
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Jeff Georgeson
- Site Admin
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I have such a love for languages that I'm more a dilettante than anything. I know a smattering of many, more of a few, and am really fluent in one (guess which one that is 
).
The plan right now is that Sylphi will teach me Japanese at some point, although of course I keep hoping I'll just learn it by watching her do her homework. Hasn't quite worked so far, though.
Jeni, if you love things like taking sentences apart and the logic of language, you should try programming languages! They're far more logical than any spoken language, but they have a beauty all their own.
(Actually, if we count programming languages, then I am fluent in several languages--but only computers understand me
)
Jeff
).The plan right now is that Sylphi will teach me Japanese at some point, although of course I keep hoping I'll just learn it by watching her do her homework. Hasn't quite worked so far, though.
Jeni, if you love things like taking sentences apart and the logic of language, you should try programming languages! They're far more logical than any spoken language, but they have a beauty all their own.
(Actually, if we count programming languages, then I am fluent in several languages--but only computers understand me
)Jeff
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Jeni Nielsen
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I've never really thought of programing as a language as such. I'm a very literary-minded person, so I guess I always understood programing to be more "math" than "language"Jeff Georgeson wrote:I have such a love for languages that I'm more a dilettante than anything. I know a smattering of many, more of a few, and am really fluent in one (guess which one that is
The plan right now is that Sylphi will teach me Japanese at some point, although of course I keep hoping I'll just learn it by watching her do her homework. Hasn't quite worked so far, though.
Jeni, if you love things like taking sentences apart and the logic of language, you should try programming languages! They're far more logical than any spoken language, but they have a beauty all their own.
(Actually, if we count programming languages, then I am fluent in several languages--but only computers understand me
Jeff
but recently I've sort of wanted to learn HTML so maybe I'll look into it.
Er HTML is a "language" isn't it. Shows what I know.I believe it might be! It's very easy, and useful for forums [thought less so now] myspace, and maybe still for making small web-sites. I had a few I did in html a few years ago. They're nothing special, but it shows how easy it is to do something functional.
http://www50.brinkster.com/jamesbyrne/index.htm
http://www.scatterbrained.cjb.net/
Swap languages with ya!
http://www50.brinkster.com/jamesbyrne/index.htm
http://www.scatterbrained.cjb.net/
Swap languages with ya!
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Jeni Nielsen
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So which one should I learn then? I'd like to be able to create/update my Livejournal layout if that means anything. I should also mention that I left my math brain in my other pants, which is to say I am not very math inclined.Spica wrote:HTML is a language (HTML stands for Hypertext Markup Language), but, from what I've heard from my Computer Science friends, it is one of the worst.