this anima is complex....and i feel like i'm standing alone on this one
i need some one to answer some questions i have:
* what is the refugees situation? from where they came and why?
* i'm on the last ep on DVD 4. and i cant understand what is the war thay are talking is all abut, and what the refugees have to do with it?
* the individual 11 are anty refugees...correct?
* and Gouda, what is he doing? way is he so anty section 9?
HELP
Last edited by snir on Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
I don't know what episode you're on, as I don't have the DVDs. I'll tell you what I know without trying to spoil things.
Side note: Please learn to spell correctly and take your time posting so that you make sense. Otherwise, many people might not even bother reading. I only answer because I see this as a good opportunity to review and discuss some parts of the story I'm not completely sure about.
The "Asian Refugees" are basically a discriminated against and oppressed minority group composed of some 3 million refugees from various parts of Asia, not including Japan. (From what I hear, the Japanese in this story don't consider themselves part of "Asia"). They came to Japan since the were driven from their homelands or saw their homelands completely destroyed (such as with nuclear weapons) during the 3rd and 4th world wars. The Japanese government supposedly invited them to the country in a display of humanitarian goodwill, but really just wanted a source of cheap labor.
Rewatch the first episode, where section 9 has a basic overview of the refugee situation, and how tensions rise between the Japanese citzenry and the refugees (who are not allowed to obtain citizenship or the same rights or opportunities) due to both the fact that tons of taxpayer funds are going to support the refugees and there are increasing terrorist acts committed by refugees or individual eleven members due to the refugee situation.
The refugees basically live in concentration camp style conditions where their freedom of movement and economic opportunities (and probably other freedoms and opportunities related to full participation and equality in Japanese society) are severly restricted. There are massive zones of the country set aside as refugee camps, and the refugees can't leave their camps and live normally in Japan or gain citizenship unless they meet certain standards for entry, which most of them can't, as there are sizable number of disgruntled refugees still in the camps. (Which I assume is the case as a war would be improbable otherwise.) For all intents and purposes they are second class citizens, sort of like the palestinians living under Israeli rule. See episode seven where this is shown.
This ties in nicely with Japan's real life history of treating foreigners and other peoples within the Asia-Pacific region (such as Chinese, Koreans, etc.) rather poorly. Take a look at Japan's isolationism and attitude towards foreigners throughout its history, for example, and more importantly, the events of the 2nd World War.
The war the major talks about is the coming armed struggle between the disenfranchised refugees and the Japanese and their government, which gradually being pushed along by terrorist violence by both the refugees and the individual eleven, and by the machinations of Gohda and the Cabinet Intelligence Agency aimed at pitting the two groups against each other. Also involved are certain right wing pro military, pro American Empire politicians, and their desire to push through the Japan-AE security pact on terms that will ally Japan with the AE and create a new world order in favor of the Americans.
Also, if you watch episode 9's conversation between Gouda and the major closely, Gouda hints that he wants Japan to return to the "glory days" of WW 2, suggesting the new order would be one of militaristic expansionism and subjugation of their neighbors alongside the AE, which has already conquered Mexico and other nations. Also, he has personal motives in that he harbors a deep inferiority complex and is obessesed with reaching what he feels is his rightful place as one of the rulers of society.
He also talks at length about how he intends to achieve this by exploiting the flow of ideas and information, the mutation of preexisting information or ideology into something it was never intended to be, and the rise of the "stand alone complex", which if you saw season 1, refers to the tendency of different and unrelated people in society, especially in Japanese society, to develop and/or share the same underlying ideology or agenda, or to take actions that contribute to an common goal they all share. This phenomenon is remarkable in that it occurs when the people involved oftentimes don't communicate with or even realize the existence of others working towards the same goal or are not even aware of the goal their actions are really leading to. (Case in point: the individual eleven fighting for "refugee liberation". Or if you watch season 1, the assasination attempt on the police inspector general in episode 6 and the entire Laughing Man storyline)
I think it is implied that the Stand Alone Complex is the result of humanity's collective unconscious, which has been strengthened by the advent of cyberbrains and the evolution of the net. The tachikomas will discuss this consciousness in episode 15 of season 2.
Related to this is the individual eleven, an anti refugee organization dedicated to "liberating" the refugees by driving them out the country, and contributing to the aforementioned war. They seem to possess much of the anti-Asian bigotry the Japanese exhibited in WW2, which you will notice in the war memorial scene in episode 12. Their ideology doesn't make much sense until episode 12 confirms that despite their talk of "individualism", the eleven are really brainwashed by a virus created by Gouda to make them unwitting puppets of his long term agenda.
So the Individual Eleven, along with other seemingly unconnected events throughout the entire season are all tools being carefully orchestrated and manipulated by Gouda to reach his long term goal of a militarist and imperialist right wing Japan rising to its proper place in the new order alongside the American Empire.
The best advice I can give you is the rewatch the episodes, and pay close attention to the dialogue and ideas being expressed by the characters. Ask more questions if you need to. Remember that events in every episode, with the possible exception of Cash Eye, are related to what I just talked about, and to the season finale. And hang in there, because seeing the big picture is worth the effort.
Now let us discuss all this so I can delude myself thinking I didn't waste a good hour of my life obsessing over an anime show.
Last edited by douyang on Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
There are 3 million refugees, all of which are asian, they came to Japan as a cheap source of labor to help in what I assume is rebuilding Japan after the war (Togusa mentioned this during episode 1 of SAC 2nd Gig)
Hope this answers your questions, you are not the only one who found Stand Alone Complex a very complex anime to understand, I find that I need to watch the episodes again to fully understand the episodes.
The complexity behind SAC is what makes so interesting, it keeps fans talking and thinking about it even after the episode has ended.
American Empire
United States, which found itself fractured after the war. The conservative party, along with the majority of the defense industry, took control of the Southern States. They formed Empirical America, or the American Empire, as it is often known. The Empire is predominantly right wing and carries an antagonistic relationship with the America/Russia Alliance. The American Empire has been demonstrating its authority as a military state since the last Great War. However, it started to suffer from a collapsed economy recently. Part of this is due to the reduction of Nuclear weapons as a deterrent now that almost every nation has them and with the Japanese Miracle, fallout is no longer a fear.
Although still a very important nation, America’s superpower status has been giving way to the economic behemoth of Japan in recent years. Currently, it is suffering from a faltering economy and a divided population. Class and racial lines have divided people into separate groups, each struggling against the others. Crime has risen to an all time high and the under funded government cannot keep enough police on the streets to do anything about it. The major corporations have stepped in somewhat offering privatization of law enforcement in some areas. As for foreign policy, the government is looking to do anything that will improve their status economically.
Russian / American Alliance
Russia became more powerful since WWIII and signed an alliance with the Northern States of old America. What formed was the Alliance. It is assumed Canada is also a member of this group, giving the Alliance domination over a large portion of the Northern Hemisphere. It is not known their position in the global circle but given their relationship with the AE, it is assumed they formed a Democracy with the American Democratic Party at its core.
Woah I never heard about the background of the American Empire, and this is the first I heard of the Russian/American alliance. Where is that info found?
Douyang's post was great. I think more people would watch 2nd GIG if they could get a decent primer before going in... instead most people give up pretty quickly, from what I can tell.
Gouda is probably my most favorite villain of all time. Information warfare is such a cool and topical concept. The idea that you can just pull a few strings here and there... and societies will dance towards expected conclusions... that's true power. It's almost Satanic But the end of all of his plans seemed like a big letdown to me..
I wish he had gotten away!! Would've felt more realistic to me.. Also, Kuze shouldn't have died. To me he seemed like he had nothing to do now that the Dejima event was over. No reason to kill him.
Hasn't the uk regained its place as a world power?
I heard aramiki say "the country that brought the first mecanised cyborg company" i think he was refering to the SAS.
I thought American Empire was just the new way of saying US, I know a few people who've been using that term for years...
Nice summary of what's going on though. 2nd GIG is way more complex than the first series, I know it took me a couple of extra viewings to get it all figured out...
Joseph Cambell wrote:Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths.
jerryku I edited your spoiler tag to be a spoiler tag. For future reference put your text in quote brackets so you get a white background and then put the text in white color.
jerryku wrote:Woah I never heard about the background of the American Empire, and this is the first I heard of the Russian/American alliance. Where is that info found?
Douyang's post was great. I think more people would watch 2nd GIG if they could get a decent primer before going in... instead most people give up pretty quickly, from what I can tell.
Gouda is probably my most favorite villain of all time. Information warfare is such a cool and topical concept. The idea that you can just pull a few strings here and there... and societies will dance towards expected conclusions... that's true power. It's almost Satanic But the end of all of his plans seemed like a big letdown to me..
I wish he had gotten away!! Would've felt more realistic to me.. Also, Kuze shouldn't have died. To me he seemed like he had nothing to do now that the Dejima event was over. No reason to kill him.
)
I always thought the show would be a lot better and more coherent if they took the time to explain the themes and the type of world the story takes place in. But I suppose there's only so much they can do with 30 minute episodes.
Spoilers:
Gouda and Kuze dying seemed pretty sensible to me. Section 9 (and by extension, Aramaki and the prime minister) were on to Gouda before the climax of his script, and you can bet they weren't going to let the bastard walk. He wasn't able to slip away as he would have liked to in the aftermath of a nuclear attack in which section 9 would be conveniently silenced. Besides, it was fun to watch his head get splattered into chewy little pieces
As you said, there was nothing left for Kuze to do. And the American Government had plenty of reason to whack him (as do others who share Gouda's ideology and goals) as the man was still the revered leader of his own 3 million strong personality cult and could seriously screw up their plans.
Last edited by douyang on Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
it seems like the refugee story line could almost be taken from american history as well. the way chinese workers were brought here to build the railroads and in a broader sense the irish immegrents in new york.
also refugees are also a problem for a lot of the governments in the bible as well.
seems refugees issues have always been a problem for the established governments once the needs for their labors were completed.
Epiphany wrote:it seems like the refugee story line could almost be taken from american history as well. the way chinese workers were brought here to build the railroads and in a broader sense the irish immegrents in new york.
also refugees are also a problem for a lot of the governments in the bible as well.
seems refugees issues have always been a problem for the established governments once the needs for their labors were completed.
There is a difference between refugee and migrant. A migrant comes to a new country to find work or to live, but not because they have been exiled or forced to leave their country. (This is incidentally why calling people "refugees" in the wake of hurricane Katrina was so weird and wrong) The Chinese who worked on the American railroads are not refugees in the correct sense of the word. Though in the storyline of ghost in the shell the refugees are used for cheap labor in a similar way the Chinese workers were.
But the end of all of his plans seemed like a big letdown to me.. 
