1st Series Episode 10 - Jungle Cruise

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Elmo
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1st Series Episode 10 - Jungle Cruise

Post by Elmo »

So what do you guys think of the ever controversial episode in which Batou must come to terms with his dark past and track down a brutal serial killer.

I have a disagreement with this episode with one of my friends; was Batou a part of 'operation sunset' or was he sent to stop it?

I think he was a part of operation Sunset and took part in the torture because the CIA database says that "Batou was a part of operation sunset", which seems clear enough to me ;)

But earlier the CIA agent says that there wouldn't be a problem now if Batou had taken care of it back then, which apparently implies that there was a confrontation between the two.

IMO It would have worked better for the narrative if they had included a confrontation between the two in the flashbacks.

also loved the sequence in the sewers, reminded me of the ending in 'the third man'. :)
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Elmo
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Post by Elmo »

also it would kind of make sense if Batou did have a history in which he was a torturer as this is something that is mentioned in the manga.
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Lightice
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Re: 1st Series Episode 10 - Jungle Cruise

Post by Lightice »

Elmo wrote: I have a disagreement with this episode with one of my friends; was Batou a part of 'operation sunset' or was he sent to stop it?

I think he was a part of operation Sunset and took part in the torture because the CIA database says that "Batou was a part of operation sunset", which seems clear enough to me ;)


To me it's always appeared, that his team was sent to stop the project and clean the traces. Remember, that the CIA agent says clearly, that if Batou had done his job properly, there wouldn't be a serial killer on the loose.
And besides, the episode does a skillful job in first implying with flashbacks, that Batou was killing civilians, but later, when we see more of the flashback, we see, that it wasn't him doing it, after all, but looking horrified at the massacre already done. To me, this tension was the central part of the episode and would make little sense, if Batou had been murdering civilians, after all.

This didn't open to me in the first watching, either - I, too, taught that Batou had been part of the project. But later viewings I got this insight. Ofcourse, I might be wrong, still, but at least to me the episode makes more sense, this way.
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Elmo
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Post by Elmo »

I have to admit it makes more sense that way round with Batou's continuing war with him.

Oh another thing.. ...did anyone else get the feeling that they were trying to say something about US foriegn policy with this episode? to me it seemd like a metaphor for how the USA supports or creates terrorist groups to further their own objectives and then with the assistance of their allies in the international community turns on them later when they no longer have a shared objective. In this the serial killer would obviously be the terrorist-monster that they let out it's cage.... or maybe I'm just reading to much into this ;)
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Míxtil
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Post by Míxtil »

Funny; I'd never once considerd him a member of the project.
It's an american project; he's a member of the Japanese rangers. Therefore, why would he be in the project? Given the proud nature of the American Empire, why would they employ a foreigner?
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Post by Tonks_kittygoth »

Where did it say that Batou was a member of the project, I dont remember hearing that at all. I also never thought of him as part of it, but as someone who either had his unit stumble upon it, or be sent in to purposly stop it.

I think the point was that he was horrified beyond action. I think he was deeply scarred beyond all the horrors he saw, by his failure to stop this human monster.

I do think it was a comentatry on american forign policy, or maybe all contries, but probably america most. The connection with Ghoda is also a part of that.

I think that rather than a coment on the u.s. turning on the "terroist" organisations, it is more that in America's careless, the ends justify the means, use of people, they create these evils and then leave them lying about without any resoulution. If you sleep with the devil you are going to enjender some demonic children.
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Elmo
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Post by Elmo »

Míxtil wrote: It's an american project; he's a member of the Japanese rangers. Therefore, why would he be in the project? Given the proud nature of the American Empire, why would they employ a foreigner?
well in pokerface it's revealed that they had foriegn troops in that conflict, british & japanese troopers including she-ape herself. (were they part of a UN force or something? i forget... maybe it's just the stupid white helmets ;) )

The reason i'm not sure on batou's alliegences in that incident is that in the translation i saw, Ishikawa gets information from the CIA database that says Batou was 'a part of' operation sunset. Also Batou talks about himself as being in the group when he details the operation to Togusa in the car saying 'we' instead of 'they' when describing what happened. This may be just a particularly funky translation though. (i wouldn't have this problem if i could learn japanese... )

...I prefer it that way round anyway because it echos a similar situation in Batous past from the manga.
Tonks_kittygoth wrote: I think that rather than a coment on the u.s. turning on the "terroist" organisations, it is more that in America's careless, the ends justify the means, use of people, they create these evils and then leave them lying about without any resoulution. If you sleep with the devil you are going to enjender some demonic children.
Ah could be. That makes sense too, though they are both riffs on the same tune. I guess it doesn't nessecerily have to be the us anyway, short sighted foriegn policy is fairly universal amongst nations with democratic leanings. The US do make such lovely villans though ;) They seemed a bit too much like caricatures for my liking. The CIA representatives could have been sinister like ghouda was (different series I know) but instead they come off like absurd clowns.
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Lightice
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Post by Lightice »

Elmo wrote: The reason i'm not sure on batou's alliegences in that incident is that in the translation i saw, Ishikawa gets information from the CIA database that says Batou was 'a part of' operation sunset.


It's been awhile, since I saw that episode, but as far as I can remember, in the subs on my DVD, Ishikawa simply says, that CIA has a file on Batou. It wouldn't be difficult to believe, that they had files on everyone, who was in close contact with the Operation.

This is largely speculation, but it seemed to me, that Batou's team was sent with some sort of understanding with the American Empire to wipe out the Operation Sunset team and thus keep the AE's hands clean of the mess.
Also Batou talks about himself as being in the group when he details the operation to Togusa in the car saying 'we' instead of 'they' when describing what happened.


I understood it the way, that "we" meant his team and their team and perhaps all the soldiers in the area. It also works as a suspenser - it makes Batou's role ambiguous and it seemed to me, that it was supposed to be questioned at the beginning of the episode, just what Batou actually did in South-America, but by the end of the episode he should be revealed as innocent to those killings.
...I prefer it that way round anyway because it echos a similar situation in Batous past from the manga.


Well, in the first season there is a scene, where Major threatens to use the "dentist" torture on an enemy fighter - though we don't actually see, if she acts on her threat. And during the 2nd Gig Batou suggests just taking Kuze's head with his knife and Major comments that he's "quite a sadist". They still aren't all that pure and innocent people, but I do think that neither Batou or Major would intentionally harm defenseless civilians, much less children.
They seemed a bit too much like caricatures for my liking. The CIA representatives could have been sinister like ghouda was (different series I know) but instead they come off like absurd clowns.


Curiously enough, they didn't seem like Japanese caricatures of Americans. Instead, they looked like American caricatyres of Japanese. Their names, too, sounded like Japanese versions of John Smith. Also, they didn't seem so much like clowns as people playing part of the clowns. Perhaps they were supposed to give an impression of harmlessness, while on duty?
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Post by Marf »

I thought he simply witnessed the aftermath of Project Sunset, hence knew about it, hence would be the ideal tool so far as the CIA are concerned to clean it up, since it would require no one else to learn about the project, which if you remember in the episode, the CIA guys says never existed.
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Post by NotAnAverageAnimeFan »

I saw the episode recently and I was looking for evidence for weither or not Batou was one of the pawns of Operation Sunset. I'm pretty sure I remember Batou saying he came acrossed the project, not participating in it. If you watch all Batou's flashbacks (during the scene when he chases the killer through the sewer) I think they show him walking into the area, seeing those who were slaughtered , then walking up behind the sadist guy while he was in the process of "working."
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Post by Individual Twelve »

Bumping, cause this episode rulez.

Batou said himself that the Rangers stumbled upon a village where the op was performed... I reckon he didn't have any part of it, but rather was disgusted by this man he discovered butchering innocent people. Sunset was also an American Empire op, wasn't it? Batou was in a Japanese regiment.
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